The last sentence here is really something to think about. The Roman Catholic Church for example has started or is responsible for starting so many different doctrines. Not one of them is truth. Everyone of them full of false prophets.
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Grace: potential or actual II
- Thread starter Aaron
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MB
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Aaron, can you answer this question, please?
jesus was using that to illustrate the difference between those who were caliming to be righteous, the pharisees and other false religious folks, and those were truly saved by grace of God.....
We go back to main point here that BOTH Adam/satan were ONLY cretaed beings that had "real free will", and they freely chose to disobey God, and brought in fall of creation and human race...
God knew what they would each do, had already ordained what would be His response, but do you think God directly caused both to fall into sin?
glfredrick
New Member
Is that not PRECISELY what happens when we are regenerated and justified?
Perhaps my line of reasoning is not so far off the biblical mark after all? :smilewinkgrin:
quite the contrary. I'm am doing nothing but quoting Scripture. I do have an answer. It's just that unless you believe what Christ has said, that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, it would be futile to suggest it.
Yes, but I won't.
So what was the point of you starting this thread??
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Yep, through faith. Now you are getting it! :smilewinkgrin:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Amy, ambiguity is the weapon of choice for those backed into a corner. Just watch how politicians answer direct questions when there is no good answer for their particular position. That is what we are witnessing here with Aaron.
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glfredrick
New Member
True that... Faith is a gift of God. :laugh:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
True. Faith cometh through hearing His words! :thumbsup:
But who ever said a gift must be irresistibly applied for the giver to get full glory? And since those who reject that gift are held to account for their unbelief by spending an eternity in hell, my view leaves them without any excuse, unlike your view in which the unbeliever can claim the "gift" was never given to them...the perfect defense.
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbs::thumbs:
Did Jesus die to make atonement for a potential class of people who just might decide by themselves to receive jesus by their own personal faith being exercised?
OR
That he died in order to make certain that there will be humans beings ssaved unto His glory and pleasure?
Do you realize that all things in the OT are a shadow of things to come? When atonement was made once a year for the whole nation of Israel, do you think every single Israelite was saved and heaven bound? NO. God has always required an atonement for sin AND faith in order to be saved. There were many Israelites that died unsaved because of their unbelief, not because there was no atonement made on their behalf.
It is no different now except that Christ's atonement is not made every year, but ONCE for ALL. But faith is still required, and anyone who does not believe will not be saved.
The OT example is no different than the NT fulfillment. Why do Cals not understand this?? :BangHead:
If you don't understand the OT it's no wonder you don't understand the NT.
Then I guess your forgetting about Gods mercy.:smilewinkgrin:
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy. And I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." :godisgood:
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.:thumbs:
convicted1
Guest
Well, the scriptures state that the wages of sin IS death. W/O sin, there could have been no way for Adam dying. God told Adam that if/when he ate of that tree, he would SURELY die. If Adam' heart was corrupted pre-fruit ingestion(sin is what brings corruption, btw), then he must have sinned outside the parameters God had already set. Now, again, what sin did Adam commit to cause corruption OUTSIDE of eating the fruit? Or better yet, where did his sinning come from? God? Satan putting it there, or Adam's failing to heed God's command(rebellion)?
Because civil-boy was feeling his oats and prematurely closed the first thread.
The question was, is grace actual or potential? Of course, the obvious answer is that grace is actual, but the assertion was made that Adam had Arminian free choice. This assertion is fallacious on a great many accounts, the most important of which is the words of Christ quoted here again and again, and rejected over and over.
Second, it asserts that sin is an ability, instead of what it really is, a loss of ability. It asserts that it is a natural, potential outcome of one who is whole, instead of what it really is, a symptom of corruption.
The viability of the premise is independent of the the identification of the corrupting influence.
You can't just claim something and offer no scriptural proof for it and not expect us to question it. Your one verse does not prove that Adam was corrupt before he sinned. That doesn't even make sense. If what you believe is true, you should have no trouble explaining it. And saying that no one would believe it even you did sounds like something a 12 year old would say. I hope you are more mature than that.
convicted1
Guest
The point(s) being missed is that Adam was formed from the pre-God cursed earth, and his soul was breathed into this pre-God cursed body. So, prior to eating the fruit, he was pristine, pure, clean, sin-free, and any other adjective that refers to "good". The fruit is what him to become corrupt, even opening his eyes to show him that he was naked, and needed to be covered. So, he was blind to before this, and blinded by sin after this occurance.
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