Harry Potter - Saint or Sinner?

[Marcia]

Posted by Mercury:
And yet you do see parallels between Harry Potter and the occult, even though it doesn't involve Satan? Isn't that rather selective reasoning?

Satan does not have to be invoked or names for someone to practice the occult. I practiced the occult and did not believe in Satan. In fact, most people in the occult don't believe in Satan. The few who do usually see him as good or at least as neutrally powerful. In fact, ritual and ceremonial magic uses the various biblical names of God in their rituals.

When God condemns occult practices, as he does all over the Bible, he does not name Satan. All we need to know is that God forbids them and find them an abomination. The Hebrew for "abomination" is one of the strongest terms used in the Bible for "hateful."

 

[Marcia]

Also, we have to consider HP's effect on the culture. After the HP books started getting popular, more books were published for teens and children with witch and wizard heroes and heroines. This was openly abscribed to HP.

Now, book publishers are hoping to cash in on this fascination, fanned by the record sales of the series featuring a boy wizard named Harry Potter.
In recent months, four publishers have launched new paperback fiction series centered on teen-age girls' involvement in witchcraft.
Three series are written for teen-agers: The "Sweep" by Cate Tiernan, published by Penguin Putnam; the "Circle of Three" by Isobel Bird, published by Avon; and the "Daughters of the Moon" by Lynne Ewing, published by Volo, an imprint of Hyperion Publishers.
The fourth series, called "T*witches," is written by H.B. Gilmour and Randi Reisfeld and is aimed at preteens. "T*witches" is published by Scholastic, regarded as the key player in series books, given its success with "Goosebumps," "The Baby-sitters Club," "Animorphs," "Dear America" and, of course, "Harry Potter."
...Cloaking such traditional themes in witchcraft gives the new series an exotic edge that plays well with teen readers, children's book experts say.
Scholastic publisher and editor in chief Jean Feiwel said the new series have merely tapped into an increased teen interest in witches.
"It's almost gotten -- dare I say it -- acceptable," Feiwel said. " There's no doubt that fantasy and wizards have become more popular because of Harry Potter. There's also been a trickle-down effect from the adult interest in New Age practices."
Practicing witches are amused by this trend in teen books.
"It's nice to see that we are not always the bad guys anymore," laughed Wren Walker, co-founder of "The Witches Voice," an umbrella Web site for witchcraft groups.
...It's clear the new series have struck a responsive chord in young readers. Publishers report that the books are selling so well that the writers have been given contracts to write more volumes.
The new witchcraft series feature provocative covers highlighting occult themes and titles such as "Blood Witch," "What the Cards Said" and "Night Shade."

The occult comes into the culture to kids largely via entertainment. That is how it is first packaged. Some kids aren't interested and some are. I've seen many displays of real books on the occult alongside Harry Potter books as well. The connection is promoted, whether one believes there is a real one or not.

 

[Marcia]

Sorry, forgot to put the info and link for the article quoted above.

(Karen MacPherson, “Book Trend Casts Spell Over Young Readers,” Pittsburgh
Post-Gazette, July 31, 2001, http://www.post-gazette.com/ae/20010731witchbooks0731p3.asp)

Scholastic, publisher of HP, published T*Witches due to the popularity of HP. If you got to the Scholastic T*Witches site, designed for children and tweens, you will see advice on casting spells and an invitation to kids to send in their spells. THis has been there for awhile.

http://www.scholastic.com/titles/twitches/magickarchive.htm
Rhyming Power: Herbs, candles, moonlight, they're all good for spells. But the secret to a truly powerful spell (for those of us in the know) is the RHYME. Without the rhyme, you're wasting your time!
Powerful Places: Some spells need atmosphere - and your bright pink bathroom just won't do. Get outside and work with Mother Nature to make some magick under the sun or the stars, near trees or water. The energy of all living things will add their power to yours.

Spells sent in from kids are at:
http://www.scholastic.com/titles/twitches/spellbook.htm

 

[Marcia]

Spell on the Scholastic link above from 13 year old Emilee in MO:

To make the best seasonal spell you take a piece pf your favorite
holiday food, your favorite flavor of candy, write down your favorite
holiday tradition, get a picture of your family, and write down all your
family's hopes and dreams for the next year. Place all these items in a
glass jar or in a box that can stand any kind of weather and hide it away
until 12:00 midnight on New Years Day.

Before you put it away light a candle next to your set the jar/box in front
of you and chant:

My all my families
Hopes and Dreams say first two lines twice
come true for the next year
and when they do
I shale open this to
remember my past
so I can then look on
into the future.

From a 15 year old girl:

This is a calling to the four great elements. Recite these words on
a summery night in the light of the full moon when the clock strikes
midnight, or in the day when the clock strikes noon.

Sun and Water, Earth and Fire,
I call to thee, sacred elements
Hear me now and listen
I give thee thanks for the joys
Of our beautiful summer season
I am grateful for everything
You have given:
The lush gardens, the great fields,
The beautiful ocean grand and deep.
All we have had,
And all that has been given,
We owe to you, the Four Great Elements,
Thank you Sun and Water, Earth and Fire.

This Scholastic site encourages kids to send in their spells and to do them.

 

[Marcia]

Just to disabuse anyone of the notion that this stuff is harmless, I see the effects all the time in my ministry of kids (and adults) involved in the occult. At one youth retreat, a girl who was a guest came up to me and told me she thought she was losing her mind. She had been doing spells for about a year and told me she couldn't stop. She was afraid to stop -- she said when she stopped, bad things happened. Anothe girl was wearing a ring imbued with powers of protection by the high priestess of the coven. I've talked to teens who started casting spells at age 11.

After HP came out, 3rd graders were playing at recess at casting spells. They want to be like Harry, Hermione, Ron, etc. When casting spells seems fun at age 8 or 9, guess what will happen when they find out in a few years they can really do this? That there are books on it and plenty of info on the Internet on it? They can even go to the Scholastic site.

Whether one thinks HP has an effect on this or not, I would rather err on the side of caution and not endorse any book that makes casting spells look powerful and good, and makes the hero a powerful sorcerer (that is what Harry is) when the real stuff is out destroying lives. Not to mention what God says about it.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

The problem is some kids have psychological issues and cannot differentiate reality from fantasy.

 

[Marcia]

Magnetic Poles, I agree that might be true for some kids, but I do not think that differentiating from fantasy and reality is the issue. Plenty of kids, as I have shown and as I know, are involved in real occult practices.

Children under 12 do not have the critical thinking skills to evaluate ideas or to filter things out. They are emotionally connected to the characters and the story. That is why 3rd graders pretend to cast spells -- they want to be like Harry. How can any Christian think this is a good and healthy thing? HP is only reinforcing the lure of this stuff - it has a lure due to the implications of power, adventure, and taboo.

I've only posted the barest tip of the iceberg here. Most Christians are not aware of the onslaught of the occult targeting kids and teens. In fact, a trade rep from Llewellyn, the largest publisher of occult books in the U.S., a few years ago told Publishers Weekly in an interview that they had realized the market for teens and younger was growing. Accordingly, they changed the covers of some of their older titles to appeal to younger readers, and the sales of those books went up tenfold.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Okay, I've only read the first couple of pages of this thread and I'm not taking the time to read all of it.

However, I am going to give my opinion.


I think some of ya'll are missing the point.

The difference between HP and wicca, hinduism, buddism, islam etc is that while it is all fiction, HP DOES NOT present itself as the Truth!

While Marcia has a point about how some children may treat it as the truth, it is not the fault of the author that our children haven't been taught the difference between fiction and nonfiction.

Scholatic on the otherhand should be ashamed of themselves for encouraging children to "cast spells" when they know good and well that there is no truth to it. However, Scholastic is just another company out there to make a buck. No different Kellog's who tells our children that sugar cereals are good for them.

If you want your children and others to know the Truth, get out there and teach them! While you are at it teach them the difference between reality and fantasy.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Spell on the Scholastic link above from 13 year old Emilee in MO:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
To make the best seasonal spell you take a piece pf your favorite
holiday food, your favorite flavor of candy, write down your favorite
holiday tradition, get a picture of your family, and write down all your
family's hopes and dreams for the next year. Place all these items in a
glass jar or in a box that can stand any kind of weather and hide it away
until 12:00 midnight on New Years Day.

Before you put it away light a candle next to your set the jar/box in front
of you and chant:

My all my families
Hopes and Dreams say first two lines twice
come true for the next year
and when they do
I shale open this to
remember my past
so I can then look on
into the future.

From a 15 year old girl:

This is a calling to the four great elements. Recite these words on
a summery night in the light of the full moon when the clock strikes
midnight, or in the day when the clock strikes noon.

Sun and Water, Earth and Fire,
I call to thee, sacred elements
Hear me now and listen
I give thee thanks for the joys
Of our beautiful summer season
I am grateful for everything
You have given:
The lush gardens, the great fields,
The beautiful ocean grand and deep.
All we have had,
And all that has been given,
We owe to you, the Four Great Elements,
Thank you Sun and Water, Earth and Fire.

This Scholastic site encourages kids to send in their spells and to do them. </font>[/QUOTE]Seems the kids reading these books aren't confused about there being witchcraft in them. Even children know it. Yet adults want to deny it so they can justify having what they want, no matter what God said.

 

[donnA]

Reality vs. fiction.
Almost all movies are fiction. So are they ok for your children too?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Okay, I've only read the first couple of pages of this thread and I'm not taking the time to read all of it.

However, I am going to give my opinion.


I think some of ya'll are missing the point.

Since you haven't read all the posts, I think you are missing the point.

The difference between HP and wicca, hinduism, buddism, islam etc is that while it is all fiction, HP DOES NOT present itself as the Truth!

While Marcia has a point about how some children may treat it as the truth, it is not the fault of the author that our children haven't been taught the difference between fiction and nonfiction.

Scholatic on the otherhand should be ashamed of themselves for encouraging children to "cast spells" when they know good and well that there is no truth to it. . .

If you want your children and others to know the Truth, get out there and teach them! While you are at it teach them the difference between reality and fantasy.

The issue is not the difference between reality and fiction. The occult is real! People do practice spells. God does condemns it.

There is a difference, however, between fiction and false, which you are not seeing. Buddhism, Wicca, Hinduism, and occult arts are false but they are not fiction. People believe them, practice them, and die without Christ because of them. Whether one thinks spells or whatever work or not is not the point. When you engage in the occult, you engage the demonic world. This is serious stuff; it is real, dangerous, and evil.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Uh uh. If you want to believe that go ahead. The kids are most certainly confused. They have most likely never heard the Truth or they would understand that HP is fantasy.

All movies on the otherhand, may or may not be fiction, but all movies are also not marketed with kids in mind. Therefore my children see those movies that I deem appropriate for their age/maturity level.

HP is fiction. In real life, children are not born with the ability to make things move around with their minds. In HP, they are.

I truely hope I'm not debating with someone who hasn't read an HP book for themselves. If I am, end of arguement, for you do not have all the pertinant information.

BTW, I was much more uncomfortable with the character Aslan, in the Narnia books, symbolizing Christ, than I ever was with the "witchcraft" in HP. Still a bit uncomfortable with that one. But there again, Narnia is a fictional place with a fictional "saviour".

 

[menageriekeeper]

Ack, my last post was to DonnA.

Back to Marcia:

No people are dieing without Christ because they were already in that condition. Therein lies the real problem. Just preaching that the occult is bad, isn't going to do the trick(no pun intended).

Now as to: "Buddhism, Wicca, Hinduism, and occult arts are false but they are not fiction." I say they are fiction and only become false because they present themselves as truth and people believe the lie. See above paragraph. People already believe all sorts of lies, if we want them to know the Truth, we have to present it to them.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Uh uh. If you want to believe that go ahead.

Are you one of those Christians who really believes the occult is not real? I was involved in it for a number of years. I can tell you it is. God also reserves some of his strongest language to denounce it. There are 2 places in the Bible where it says the worship of idols is the worship of demons. So idols may be false but worship of them, just like occult practices, engage demons. I also had friends involved in these areas. In fact, I had a lot of witches and psychics as friends and astrological clients.

The kids are most certainly confused. They have most likely never heard the Truth or they would understand that HP is fantasy.

HP is fiction. In real life, children are not born with the ability to make things move around with their minds. In HP, they are.

I truely hope I'm not debating with someone who hasn't read an HP book for themselves. If I am, end of arguement, for you do not have all the pertinant information.

I wish you would go back and read the other posts, especially the ones on the previous page. I have read all 5 HP books, written on them, been on a dozen radio shows on them, been in debates on them, spoken publicly on them, been challenged on them, answer emails on them, etc., etc.

You are still equating fiction with false, and not recognizing that the danger in the occult. I guess God was just passing the time when He condemned them. Sure, there are people who are frauds and scam artists (notably the gypsy readers), but that does not mean the occult is not real.

Acts 16 has Paul casting a demon out of a woman doing divination. It was how she did it. I think God includes this account to show us there is demonic power behind this stuff.

 

[menageriekeeper]

No, I believe the occult is very real. Just like I believe Buddists are very real.

I don't think you can "catch" the either one just by reading a book. What I believe is that people are already condemned because of Adam's sin. An occultist is no more condemned to hell than any other idol worshiper.

Unsaved people will be drawn to the false simply because they believe any one of an infinite number of Satan's lies. Believing that the kinds of things that happen in the fictional land of HP could actually be brought about in reality only shows that these folks have a lot of trouble separating fantasy and reality and they have a lot of wishful thinking.

I understand that your opinion of HP is that children/people are being brought into the occult unawares through these books. What I am saying is that these folks probably weren't headed for the straight and narrow path at the start with. They've never been presented with the Truth so they get drawn into the false. The problem lies not with the fiction they read, but with those who know the Truth but don't share it, preferring instead to give a list of what is right and what is wrong, when we know perfectly well that no such list will ever be enough to bridge the gap between God and man.

 

[ASLANSPAL]

"BTW, I was much more uncomfortable with the character Aslan, in the Narnia books, symbolizing Christ, than I ever was with the "witchcraft" in HP. Still a bit uncomfortable with that one. But there again, Narnia is a fictional place with a fictional "saviour".

What! not cool!

http://www.visit4info.com/details.cfm?adid=22624

http://www.funnyclipcentral.com/content/geicocaveman.php

&lt;gig&gt;

 

[Marcia]

Meangerikeeper, I never said anyone could "catch" anything by reading. Straw man.

The issue is not believing that everything in HP is true. It's that it does endorse some real occult practics, which I pointed out ad nauseum already.

I am also not saying that the only danger is some children being attracted to or interested in it, but the effect on the culture, and other similar books being published because of it. In fact, I've had emails from HP fans asking me how to do magick. It's not just my opinion, as I showed. Even the movie "The Craft" was acknowledged by witches as having created a revival of interest in witchcraft amongst teens.

I've had teen girls tell me they got into Wicca via the book, "Teen Witch."

Also, I have some news for you: Christian kids and adults dabble in and do get involved in the occult. I've talked to many teens from solid Christian families who got interested in Wicca via books, the Internet, or a friend. One was in a Christian school. I can't even count how many times this has happened that I know of.

Yes, they need the Truth of Christ, but that does not mean we close our eyes to books that promote evil that God condemns.

 

[TexasSky]

Just out of curiosity.

How many of you that are screaming that Harry Potter is a satanic book let your children read "The Odyssey" or "MacBeth" or "The Illiad" or "Helen of Troy"? Have your kids read "Midsummer's Night Dream?"

The Odyssey - which is TAUGHT to your children is based on a false religion. It was never presented as fiction. It was presented as stories of false gods.

Same for the Iliad.

As to whoever said it teaches occult practices - hardly. The closest thing to "resurrection" in the story is the return of a Phoenix bird.

The villain never died, ergo you cannot call him resurrected.

The "spells" don't call upon gods.

In fact - there are absolutely NO gods mentioned, no "powers to help you gain power". NONE of that. Not even "the power is within you." Stuff.

The way the story is built, some people in the universe are born with a gift for magic in the same way some people are born with a gift for music or others for art. Those who are born with that magic gene can study and improve the skill.

They cannot "steal power from one another", they don't beg Satan to help them. They don't condemn God.

The good guys care about others.
The bad guys are greedy, self serving, self-centered creeps.

 

[TexasSky]

P S Rowling's a professed Christian and a professed Presbyterian member of the Church of Scotland.

Now - if you want to debate whether Presyterians are Christian or not - you need another board.

There is less "evil" and less darkness in the Harry Potter books than in the Tolkein books. There are no "false gods" in the Potter books.

Yet - people accept that Tolkein was "okay" because and Rowlings is not.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Believing that the kinds of things that happen in the fictional land of HP could actually be brought about in reality only shows that these folks have a lot of trouble separating fantasy and reality and they have a lot of wishful thinking.

Separating fantasy from reality is not the issue. Is there a Christain site somewhere that posts this that Christians are copying from?

People get into the occult all the time who can separate reality from fantasy. And just because a book is fictional, it can still have reference to real things.

Let's make Harry gay. He discoveres he is gay, struggles with it, and then comes to terms with it. What's wrong with that? Would Christians be promoting the book? Why not? It's just fantasy!

Before you say being gay is real, well, occult practices are real, too. And they are in the book by name.