Has God determined all things?

[Iconoclast]

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

We do because He Has already done a work:

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[Benjamin]

I do not believe God does anything according to our response in that He already knows and has purposed what He will do.The romans 1 passages are in reference to those in times past, noahs day, the tower of babel,etc.

Icon, I know what you believe and how you come to those conclusions of determinism concerning Divine foreknowledge. I’ve been over and over this point in the "Molinist Differentiated from Calvinist" tread. And I disagree with you, Romans is addressing all and referring to the gospel, the true Light into all the world that Paul at least is not ashamed of expressing. Verse 1:20 makes it clear that all creation sees, understands and thereby will have no excuse for not freely responding and recieving the promises made in the Gospel.

I’m not going to chase your whole system down in this thread. The question was if you believe in Determinism and I believe your answer to that should be “yes”. I compared your philosophy of Determinism to that of true Creaturely Volition in post #29 and spelled the problems of holding to such a doctrine as Determinism. I don't expect you to prove anything I said there against determinism to be false. I just didn't want you to think I was ignoring your "logic".

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,
I got it as to why and when you responded the first time.Thank you for your response.
I respond despite our different understanding to clarify and focus on how and why we differ.I believe you over think some of these things,and you might feel I am not grasping what you express.
You have reacted to Heralds response, but I am confident that he understands very well the similarities and differences of the systems.
Any slacking on the effects of the fall...leads to an elevated view of man and his abilities.
Many of us know how evil and wicked we were apart from God's grace,so we see it in scripture as already reflecting this inability.

Romans 1 does highlight why we are not to be ashamed of the gospel as it is the power of God resulting in deliverance. If you look Paul by the Spirit makes the case that indeed all men Jew and gentile are already under God's wrath...yes.
I just believe that before he focuses on israel he is speaking back in redemptive history to demonstrate that even those we now call heathen , at one time knew about the true and living God ,but turned away.God giving them over to all manner of idolatry and sexual perversion.

I am not certain how to make it clearer,but from time to time going over the two views might be helpful to others.Thanks again for your participation.

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin,
I got it as to why and when you responded the first time.Thank you for your response.

You're welcome, but that's all (Determinist logic) I care to respond to and again I don't expect you you refute what I said as like I said said in that post your system of Determinism has no valid argument against my claims which I made in post #29.

I know you’re anxious to teach me, to “help me” as you say, and show me all the scriptures (#4 in that post #29) you can come up with to interpret into what you think fits to support your Determinist System but I’ve been there, done that, dealt with the logic of your system’s interpretations and I’m not really interested in chasing all those rabbits again. I’ve got a string of rabbit feet about a mile long already and don’t need any more. [poke] They are all looking the same anyway except some have more blood stains on them than others and I think you’ve lost enough blood. [/poke]

 

[Herald]

I suggest you study the differences between Arminian theology and semi-pelagianism because I have no desire to deal with your ignorant determinist dogma nor spend the time dealing with your common Calvinist ploy here of making that accusation.

I suggest you go look in a mirror. You are most certainly the kettle calling the pot black.

You are a semi-Pelagianist in my book. That's not a personal attack, it's calling you what you really are. I'm also not using a ploy. This is what I believe based on how you represent yourself.

 

[jonathan.borland]

I suggest you go look in a mirror. You are most certainly the kettle calling the pot black.

You are a semi-Pelagianist in my book. That's not a personal attack, it's calling you what you really are. I'm also not using a ploy. This is what I believe based on how you represent yourself.

Are you saying that the HS's convicting power is not enough to elicit a response yea of nay? Did Jesus enlighten every man that comes into the world enough to respond yea or nay to the HS's conviction or not? If yes. What a great Savior! If not, what an impotent Jesus and HS.

 

[MB]

We do because He Has already done a work:


12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Of course God works in all of us. He always has. It's the work you claim that He does that is false. God does not need to regenerate man in order to work on his heart. Scripture gives us the right message. Where Calvinism goes wrong is their own embellishments. There simply is no pre-faith regeneration.
That is why you can't show it from scripture.
MB

 

[Herald]

Are you saying that the HS's convicting power is not enough to elicit a response yea of nay? Did Jesus enlighten every man that comes into the world enough to respond yea or nay to the HS's conviction or not? If yes. What a great Savior! If not, what an impotent Jesus and HS.

You're asking me lay out the biblical case for regeneration, which you will obviously reject since it is coming from a Reformed point of view. The Reformed understanding of Scripture leads to the understanding that God first regenerates the human heart making it capable of believing (faith and belief are from the same Greek word, pistis). It is the Holy Spirit that convicts and regenerates, so I would be in partial agreement with your first question. Where I disagree is the possibility of a "nay." God's call is effectual every time; i.e. all whom the Father calls will come to faith in Christ.

The enlightenment you're referring to is not the imparting of faith to every man. I like the way Matthew Henry explains it:

(1. )By his creating power he enlightens every man with the light of reason; that life which is the light of men is from him; all the discoveries and directions of reason, all the comfort it gives us, and all the beauty it puts upon us, are from Christ. (2.) By the publication of his gospel to all nations he does in effect enlighten every man.

In other words Christ is the answer to every man through the Gospel.

Again, I know we disagree on this, but I thought I should at least articulate the Reformed position.

 

[Herald]

Jonathan,

While Benjamin bristles at the accusation of being a semi-Pelagianist, I am right on the money using that description. Semi-Pelagianism basically teaches that man cooperates with God in salvation. God will not violate man's free will. Man must have faith, and exercise it, by believing the Gospel. That faith, according to the SP position, has always been possessed by the individual (i.e. your comment about Christ enlightening every man). There is more to SP than this one issue, but in it is the most addressed issue when it come to SP and DoG debates.

 

[jonathan.borland]

On the sheep...the Jews could have entered the gate through faith and obedience. Instead they were thieves and robbers (bad shrpherds), and of course those, seeing as they did not enter through Jesus but instead wanted to steal, kill, and destroy, obviously are not God's. but thanks be to God, since ANYONE who believes is saved, John 10:9.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Regeneration comes as a result of a believing response to the HS's conviction and not the other way around. If we are regenetated before believing then we are saved before believing and that is nonsense.

 

[Herald]

Regeneration comes as a result of a believing response to the HS's conviction and not the other way around. If we are regenetated before believing then we are saved before believing and that is nonsense.

I think you need to understand the ordo salutis (order of salvation) as taught in scripture. You're free to throw the "nonsense" label out as many times as it makes you feel better about yourself. It really does nothing to advance the discussion.

 

[jonathan.borland]

I think being born again before one believes in Jesus is quite unscriptural not to mention nonsense. It's exactly the reverse of what the Bible teaches actually.

 

[Winman]

Of course God works in all of us. He always has. It's the work you claim that He does that is false. God does not need to regenerate man in order to work on his heart. Scripture gives us the right message. Where Calvinism goes wrong is their own embellishments. There simply is no pre-faith regeneration.
That is why you can't show it from scripture.
MB

Not only can Calvinism not show a single scripture that supports regeneration before faith, Calvinists must ignore many scriptures that show faith precedes regeneration.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Regeneration means to be alive again. First of all, that means you were alive BEFORE, otherwise you could not be alive AGAIN. Nevertheless, all scripture shows a person must believe before they are regenerated and have spiritual life.

It is utterly illogical that regeneration could precede faith, for until you believe on Jesus you are condemned and dead in your trespasses and sins.

Calvinists and Calvinism do not care for truth, they prefer their false theology to scripture and even common sense. You can't tell them anything.

 

[Benjamin]

You are a semi-Pelagianist in my book. That's not a personal attack, it's calling you what you really are. I'm also not using a ploy. This is what I believe based on how you represent yourself.

Me thinks you got this defense straight out of the "Calvinist/Hyper-Determinst Tactics Book" on how to attack those who disagree with the Determinist view. ("C" in my post #29)


And here I thought the subject was if one believes God has determined all things which I addressed in that post #29. Hmm, I don't even remember you responding to that on topic post and here we are discussing whether or not I am a semi-pelagian. Surprise-surprise!!! My how things can get turned around in this forum!



I see you are doing a great job of "picking out the highlights" and "advancing the discussion" here in the topic you've raised, Herold! Keep up the good work!

 

[OldRegular]

Not only can Calvinism not show a single scripture that supports regeneration before faith, Calvinists must ignore many scriptures that show faith precedes regeneration.

I don't profess to be a Calvinist so don't claim to speak for them. However, since I do believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace I will say that Scripture has been presented on numerous occasions showing that God the Holy Spirit makes those who are dead in sin [the unregenerate person] spiritually alive without any action on the the unregenerate person's part. As often as the Scripture is presented you deny it.

I would also note that no Calvinist that I know [I believe I only know one, my Presbyterian brother in Jesus Christ.] would deny the role of faith in Salvation. Similarly those with whom I am acquainted who believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace would never deny the role of faith in Salvation.

 

[Winman]

I don't profess to be a Calvinist so don't claim to speak for them. However, since I do believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace I will say that Scripture has been presented on numerous occasions showing that God the Holy Spirit makes those who are dead in sin [the unregenerate person] spiritually alive without any action on the the unregenerate person's part. As often as the Scripture is presented you deny it.

I would also note that no Calvinist that I know [I believe I only know one, my Presbyterian brother in Jesus Christ.] would deny the role of faith in Salvation. Similarly those with whom I am acquainted who believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace would never deny the role of faith in Salvation.

Everyone believes the Holy Spirit regenerates an unregenerate person, that is not the issue. The issue is whether regeneration precedes faith, or faith precedes regeneration. DoG and Calvinism claim regeneration precedes faith. You cannot present a single verse of scripture to support this, not one. I challenge you to show such a verse, you can't do it.

On the other hand, I have already showed John 20:31 that says a person must believe in order to have life. This life is regeneration. In the past I have probably shown at least a dozen other scriptures that ALL show faith precedes regeneration. One such verse is John 3:16 that says whosoever believes shall not perish but HAVE (following) everlasting life. Regeneration means to be alive again, it does not mean other things like enlightenment. The word enlightenment means enlightenment. You cannot simply assign your own definitions to words that suits and supports you, language does not work like that.

You can claim all day you have presented scripture to support your view, but you have not, and any truly honest Calvinist would admit they do not have scripture to support your view.

 

[OldRegular]

You can claim all day you have presented scripture to support your view, but you have not, and any truly honest Calvinist would admit they do not have scripture to support your view.

Perhaps one day God will grant you the grace to understand Scripture. There is always hope.

In my childhood as a Christian I believed as you do; that "Big I" had to help God out a little. I thank Him that He did not leave min in my ignorance but enabled me to understand His Word.

The following Scripture illustrates the stature of man relative to God:

Isaiah 40:21, 22
21. Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22. It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

 

[Winman]

Perhaps one day God will grant you the grace to understand Scripture. There is always hope.

And perhaps you will be honest enough to admit you don't have a single verse of scripture that shows regeneration precedes faith.

I challenge you here and now to show ANY verse of scripture that says this. You can't do it.

It's time to shut up and put up.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Perhaps one day God will grant you the grace to understand Scripture. There is always hope.

Almost thou persuadest me to be a Calvinist.

....oooooooops, wrong translation.....

Do you think with so little you can persuade me to be a Calvinist.

Oh that's right, you ain't a Calvinist, my bad.