Has God determined all things?

[OldRegular]

Almost thou persuadest me to be a Calvinist.

....oooooooops, wrong translation.....

Do you think with so little you can persuade me to be a Calvinist.

Oh that's right, you ain't a Calvinist, my bad.

I have no desire to persuade you to be a Calvinist since I am not a Calvinist. Furthermore, I have no desire to persuade you to understand and accept the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. As I told Winman in my response to him I was once blind to the Doctrines of Grace but God opened my eyes otherwise I might still believe, God forbid, that the "Big I" had to help God out in saving me. Perhaps one day He will enlighten you and Winman. There is always hope.

That being said, I believe it is incumbent on those who believe as I do to respond to error when it is posted on this Forum.

 

[Winman]

I have no desire to persuade you to be a Calvinist since I am not a Calvinist. Furthermore, I have no desire to persuade you to understand and accept the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. As I told Winman in my response to him I was once blind to the Doctrines of Grace but God opened my eyes otherwise I might still believe, God forbid, that the "Big I" had to help God out in saving me. Perhaps one day He will enlighten you and Winman. There is always hope.

That being said, I believe it is incumbent on those who believe as I do to respond to error when it is posted on this Forum.

Why don't you open our eyes and show us even one single verse of scripture that says a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

You can't do it because no such scripture exists.

SHOW IT

 

[MB]

I don't profess to be a Calvinist so don't claim to speak for them. However, since I do believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace I will say that Scripture has been presented on numerous occasions showing that God the Holy Spirit makes those who are dead in sin [the unregenerate person] spiritually alive without any action on the the unregenerate person's part. As often as the Scripture is presented you deny it.

You certainly haven't shown this to me. Let me see all those scriptures. I'd like to see them.

I would also note that no Calvinist that I know [I believe I only know one, my Presbyterian brother in Jesus Christ.] would deny the role of faith in Salvation. Similarly those with whom I am acquainted who believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace would never deny the role of faith in Salvation.

You just did above because, regeneration is Salvation. It isn't an opening of the mind because many understand and still reject it.
MB

 

[MB]

I have no desire to persuade you to be a Calvinist since I am not a Calvinist. Furthermore, I have no desire to persuade you to understand and accept the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. As I told Winman in my response to him I was once blind to the Doctrines of Grace but God opened my eyes otherwise I might still believe, God forbid, that the "Big I" had to help God out in saving me. Perhaps one day He will enlighten you and Winman. There is always hope.

That being said, I believe it is incumbent on those who believe as I do to respond to error when it is posted on this Forum.

The underlined is a complete misunderstanding of scripture and how the Holy Spirit works on us to save us. There is no question that Salvation is all of God. You said what you said above underlined I suppose because you think this is freewill. It isn't. Free will only comes in when the choice is placed before you. That Choice I don't believe is for Salvation but whether or not to continue on in your rebellion. The work of the Holy Spirit is to convince us of the truth and convict us of our sins. Our choice is only to rebel or not. There is no grace for those who have no faith because with out faith grace can't reach us because it comes through faith Eph 2:8
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

MB
Hello MB. lets see what we have here!

Of course God works in all of us. He always has.

We are told that God is good to all men.We are told that God convicts the world of sin.God is long suffering with the wicked.God reveals himself to all men in creation, and in the God given conscience.
We are not told that God works savingly except in the elect. AGREED???

It's the work you claim that He does that is false.

Okay...something I have posted you do not agree with.You suggest it is a falsehood. Let's look at it:thumbsup:

God does not need to regenerate man in order to work on his heart.

Mb...lets establish what we believe on this;
Did Adam die in the fall. or did he just make a little mistake and need some correction?

Was he only slightly wounded...or did spiritual death take place?

It is important to start correctly.:thumbs:

If man does not need regeneration...what is his condition?
How then does regeneration fit in?

I believe Adam died as our federal head...we die in him.
I believe scripture teaches Jesus is the last Adam...all who are IN Christ have eternal life
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Agreed?

Scripture gives us the right message.

Yes..I believe this to be true,100%

Where Calvinism goes wrong is their own embellishments. There simply is no pre-faith regeneration.
That is why you can't show it from scripture.

Calvinists do not believe that at all.

They believe that repentance and faith..a saving belief happens at the moment of regeneration....at the very same time known unto God, but evidenced in a converted life...a turning from ungodliness and sin, to seeking after holiness as it is In JESUS:godisgood:

 

[Winman]

MB
Hello MB. lets see what we have here!



We are told that God is good to all men.We are told that God convicts the world of sin.God is long suffering with the wicked.God reveals himself to all men in creation, and in the God given conscience.
We are not told that God works savingly except in the elect. AGREED???

Okay...something I have posted you do not agree with.You suggest it is a falsehood. Let's look at it:thumbsup:

Mb...lets establish what we believe on this;
Did Adam die in the fall. or did he just make a little mistake and need some correction?

Was he only slightly wounded...or did spiritual death take place?

It is important to start correctly.:thumbs:

If man does not need regeneration...what is his condition?
How then does regeneration fit in?

I believe Adam died as our federal head...we die in him.
I believe scripture teaches Jesus is the last Adam...all who are IN Christ have eternal life
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Agreed?

Yes..I believe this to be true,100%

Calvinists do not believe that at all.

They believe that repentance and faith..a saving belief happens at the moment of regeneration....at the very same time known unto God, but evidenced in a converted life...a turning from ungodliness and sin, to seeking after holiness as it is In JESUS:godisgood:

Calvinist mumbo jumbo, not one verse of scripture that says a person must be regenerated or made alive again to have the ability to believe.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do the scriptures say whosoever has life shall believe? NO. The scriptures say whosoever believes shall HAVE life.

You can show Calvinists many scriptures that all say a person must believe to obtain or have life (regeneration) and they will completely ignore them and hold to their false doctrine.

It is a waste of time to show Calvinists the truth of scripture, they would rather believe their lies.

 

[Herald]

Me thinks you got this defense straight out of the "Calvinist/Hyper-Determinst Tactics Book" on how to attack those who disagree with the Determinist view. ("C" in my post #29)

Oh, you mean the Bible. Yeah. I used that book.

And here I thought the subject was if one believes God has determined all things which I addressed in that post #29. Hmm, I don't even remember you responding to that on topic post and here we are discussing whether or not I am a semi-pelagian. Surprise-surprise!!! My how things can get turned around in this forum!

Yeah. They do. Especially when others go off topic first.

I see you are doing a great job of "picking out the highlights" and "advancing the discussion" here in the topic you've raised, Herold! Keep up the good work!

Getting a little hot in the kitchen, isn't it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Regeneration comes as a result of a believing response to the HS's conviction and not the other way around. If we are regenetated before believing then we are saved before believing and that is nonsense.

JB,

Lets take a look at Jn 3....

Jesus says that being born from above...{regeneration} is the work of the Spirit. He says the Spirit is sovereign in this{he comes and goes like the wind} you do not see it ,but you see the effects of His work.

the result of this work is that everyone believing and continuing to believe will be saved...saved from their sins now, saved from the second death...they have life eternal.

What is wrong with this? How do you believe that The Spirit alone does not do the work at the same time enabling the sinner to repent and believe...all at one time. The sinner maybe drawn over time, convicted several times. At one point in time the Spirit translates the sinner from darkness to light.....as a consequence...he believes what he was previously not able to believe.ROM8:7.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

Do the scriptures say whosoever has life shall believe? NO. The scriptures say whosoever believes shall HAVE life.

Actually it does not,lol

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.


You just like to be negative and resist truth...I understand but you have lost all credibility in that you have been answered over and over..and yet you trample the scripture under your feet.This is not a good thing to do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,

here is your infamous post#29.....

I wouldn't want you feel I'm ignoring your "logic" Icon!

My philosophical expression presents a simple valid logical truth concerning “free will/volition” (synonyms, not semantic ambiguity) that even a child could understand as standing in truth.

So what is the alternative if one is to reject the simple logical truth of man possessing free will/volition?

Here is the simple “truths” of Determinism:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

X = man’s choices
X = evil

So is a man held responsible for his choices which were not freely made?

The Determinist’s (Iconoclast’s) answer to this question is “yes”.

Then the only conclusion one can come to concerning judgment is that man must be held responsible for his choices which were fore determined by God.

The Calvinist/Determinist claims that God has sovereignly (fore determined) that choice (X) and by necessity they insists that (X) = true, yet they attempt to place responsibility for that choice upon man.

There is not a bit of logic to the Calvinist conclusion that man is responsible for his sins if his choice is not freely made. So what will they argue to support their Determinist doctrines: A. That man being responsible is a mystery. B. They will deny logic as a way to determine the truth. C. They will begin with Ad Hominem and try to change the subject. D. They may offer scripture which they interpret as supporting their view of Divine sovereignty while avoiding the second part of the argument asking how man is held responsible, or how God is just to reassign what He is responsible for onto His creatures. But they will not offer a valid argument because there is none to defend their Deterministic position.

In a cult-like fashion, with what appears to be an Archie Bunker type of phikosophy many Determinists continue to use their invalid arguments for the “Doctrines of Deterministic Pre-selected Grace”. These doctrines consist of a collection of force to fit scriptural interpretations to support the Systematic philosophies of Calvinism, which are centered on 5 points called the TULIP, all of which must indispensably hinge on these alleged Deterministic characteristics are being attributed to the Divine Nature of God, including evil, along with what they insist must be His sovereign controlling rule onto the world, regardless of the simple logically applied theological consequences in making out God to be a despot.


The Bible declares that all God’s ways are judgment, that He is a Just God and a God of Truth. (Deut 32:4)

The Determinists clearly deny these Truths of God’s Divine attributes as given in the scriptures according to the conclusions of their doctrines pertaining to creaturely freedom and responsibility as I have demonstrated above. In logically voiding the Goodness (Omnibenevolence) of God and attributing evil onto Him (The Hyper-Determinist often even openly admits that He believes God has evil in Him as part of His Nature) they yet have another problem: The doctrines of Calvinism/Determinism unavoidably logically lead into theological fatalism…See the “Problem of Evil”.
__________________

We all tell you determinism is fatalism...we are not fatalists. You do not understand this evidently.Stop hiding behind philosophy, syllogisms, debate fallacies, and deal with scripture. Deut 32;4 is a good verse..we all like it..try to branch out a bit more...
i answered you at length but the connection was disrupted and it was lost.....we made some progress, but now you are claiming your rabbit trail defence...so you are in need of a rest perhaps....lol ...later on my friend Benjamin...

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I have no desire to persuade you to be a Calvinist since I am not a Calvinist. Furthermore, I have no desire to persuade you to understand and accept the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. As I told Winman in my response to him I was once blind to the Doctrines of Grace but God opened my eyes otherwise I might still believe, God forbid, that the "Big I" had to help God out in saving me. Perhaps one day He will enlighten you and Winman. There is always hope.

That being said, I believe it is incumbent on those who believe as I do to respond to error when it is posted on this Forum.

The underlined is a complete misunderstanding of scripture and how the Holy Spirit works on us to save us. There is no question that Salvation is all of God. You said what you said above underlined I suppose because you think this is freewill. It isn't. Free will only comes in when the choice is placed before you. That Choice I don't believe is for Salvation but whether or not to continue on in your rebellion. The work of the Holy Spirit is to convince us of the truth and convict us of our sins. Our choice is only to rebel or not. There is no grace for those who have no faith because with out faith grace can't reach us because it comes through faith Eph 2:8
MB

Bless your little pea pikin heart, you got one correct. You say that the underlined in my post presented above

is a complete misunderstanding of scripture

but that is what you Arminians, semi-Pelagians, or Pelagians believe. God is unable to save you, the "Big I", unless you give your consent.

You reference Ephesians 2:8 to make a point. If you will read Ephesians 2:1-7 you will learn that the Holy Spirit has already regenerated that dead man.

 

[OldRegular]

Why don't you open our eyes and show us even one single verse of scripture that says a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

You can't do it because no such scripture exists.

SHOW IT

Please don't scream Winman! It reflects poorly on our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin,

here is your infamous post#29.....

Want to cut to chase eh?

We all tell you determinism is fatalism...we are not fatalists. You do not understand this evidently.

One thing at a time there Icon, and don't forget you wanted me not to ignore your "logic" and I answered you. 1) Are you "logically" what would be considered a Determinist? Then we can begin to look at the conseqences of involved with Determinist and where they lead, okay?

Well let's see what a "logical" discussion has brought us to:

Determinism, logically simple as 1,2,3:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

X = man’s choices
X = evil


Well, first, seems to me I’ve demonstrated the conclusion is Iconoclast logically believes that God determined all things. Yes, I think that would define "Determinism.

So having been spelled this out logically the question remains:

Originally Posted by Benjamin:
So is a man held responsible for his choices which were not freely made?

The Determinist’s (Iconoclast’s) answer to this question is “yes”.

Here is Iconoclast’s "logic" on the subject lest it be forgotten:

Icon's deterministic logic we are expected to interact with:
Such a choice can be made even if a persons will is not free.They do not necessarily require the persons nature to have an uncontrolled and absolute freedom for a choice to be made.It is two different things. You ignore this.

Again concerning whether or not man has free will/volition which I have shown to be logically mutually exclusive to Doctrines of Determinism

And here is my logic, lest it be forgotten:

“Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.” ~ Benjamin :thumbs:

Since I didn’t ignore your logic could not now please explain (give a valid argument) how “It is two different things.” Meaning how it is a man can be responsible for actions that he was not able to freely choose (being God determined all things) can be logically (truthfully) held responsible for his sins? Or in other words, how such a choice can be freely made without one being “truly” free to make that choice?

BTW, If you can't logically answer this question maybe I can "help you" to figure out why can't. :thumbs:

 

[jonathan.borland]

Thanks, Benjamin.

This is a good thread because it gets to the crux of the matter. Does God predetermine even all of man's choices? It eventually leads to a non-biblical God, who, even though he knows who can and can't receive him because he already decided the issue for them nevertheless dangles salvation in front of people, sends his Spirit to convict them to repent even though they can't, and then in the end mocks them to derision and damns them to hell. In the end that is the impression I get that is troubling, an impression of a non biblical God. That said, I sometimes have the *feeling* that God's grace is irresistible, but that is just a feeling and we shouldn't elevate feelings above the plain teaching of the Bible.

 

[MB]

Bless your little pea pikin heart, you got one correct. You say that the underlined in my post presented above but that is what you Arminians, semi-Pelagians, or Pelagians believe. God is unable to save you, the "Big I", unless you give your consent.

LOL! It isn't ever the case that God is unable to save. It's that God will not save an unwilling heart.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

You reference Ephesians 2:8 to make a point. If you will read Ephesians 2:1-7 you will learn that the Holy Spirit has already regenerated that dead man.

What man? Paul was speaking to several men who were already saved. Your claim would mean Paul lied about how grace can come to men. No Faith ,No grace. With out faith no one can be justified.
What makes a cantankerous old Calvinist like you think I'm an Arminian or Pelagan. I do not follow men like you do, I follow Christ.
MB

 

[OldRegular]

LOL! It isn't ever the case that God is unable to save. It's that God will not save an unwilling heart.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

What man? Paul was speaking to several men who were already saved. Your claim would mean Paul lied about how grace can come to men. No Faith ,No grace. With out faith no one can be justified.
What makes a cantankerous old Calvinist like you think I'm an Arminian or Pelagan. I do not follow men like you do, I follow Christ.
MB

Your words speak for you! If you follow Jesus Christ then believe Him and His Word! If you believe you have to give Jesus Christ permission to save you you have a pathetic understanding of His Sacrifice!

If you think Paul was speaking of those who were already saved in Ephesians 2:1-7 then you need to improve your reading skills.

 

[Benjamin]

Thanks, Benjamin.

You’re welcome.

This is a good thread because it gets to the crux of the matter.

Well, as you can see on this board one can “try” and stick to subject but others/most here have no respect whatsoever to debate ethically and to stick to the topic whatsoever (Has God Determined all Things). They will childishly bring up their whole systematic process on every issue raised and there are no rules enforced here to keep them on subject so they continue in their childish unethical debating ways.

Does God predetermine even all of man's choices? It eventually leads to a non-biblical God, who, even though he knows who can and can't receive him because he already decided the issue for them nevertheless dangles salvation in front of people, sends his Spirit to convict them to repent even though they can't, and then in the end mocks them to derision and damns them to hell. In the end that is the impression I get that is troubling, an impression of a non biblical God.

You have hit on some major points describing how the Doctrines of Determinism become Theologically Fatalistic that I would expand on more but there is really no sense of starting on that here because the same ones that are using the tactics to avoid premises will disregard what I have spelled out in my conclusion on those grounds and having never let the discussion get that far obviously think their type of defense has some type of meaning. To me is means they have childishly avoided the proir premises and thereby don't need to own up to any conclusions.

That said, I sometimes have the *feeling* that God's grace is irresistible, but that is just a feeling and we shouldn't elevate feelings above the plain teaching of the Bible.

I started on my soap box about the feeling of grace being irresistible pertaining to the power of God’s Love and Truths, which like turned into a whole page real quick, but then I realized I best not post it here and aid in causing a major distraction. I can PM it to you if you like.

Anyway, the conclusion to the matter of actually owning up to Determinism above is here:

Then the only conclusion one can come to concerning judgment is that man must be held responsible for his choices which were fore determined by God.

The Calvinist/Determinist claims that God has sovereignly (fore determined) that choice (X) and by necessity they insists that (X) = true, yet they attempt to place responsibility for that choice upon man.

There is not a bit of logic to the Calvinist conclusion that man is responsible for his sins if his choice is not freely made. So what will they argue to support their Determinist doctrines: A. That man being responsible is a mystery. B. They will deny logic as a way to determine the truth. C. They will begin with Ad Hominem and try to change the subject. D. They may offer scripture which they interpret as supporting their view of Divine sovereignty while avoiding the second part of the argument asking how man is held responsible, or how God is just to reassign what He is responsible for onto His creatures. But they will not offer a valid argument because there is none to defend their Deterministic position.

It is interesting to note how quickly Determinists will resort to A-D to defend their doctrines. You might note how easy it is to accurately assign one of those letters to each of their common argument tactics while they avoid giving a valid logical on topic argument to defend their Determinist position in regards to how man can be held responsible for their actions in "truth". BTW, that is why Deut 32:4 is important in spelling out and maintaining God's attributes which Biblically totally destroy the Determinst conclusions on responsibility!

Same old, same old, don't know why I bother here!

 

[Herald]

I understand that this board is dominated by semi-Pelagians. That's fine since semi-Pelagian theology dominates the Baptist scene in the United States and Canada. I state this since I am not expecting agreement or even understanding. I'm used to the "salmon swimming upstream" dynamic when it comes to positing the DoG on the Baptist Board. That's not a complaint, it's a truthful statement. In fact, no one on this board who holds to the DoG should be complaining about how they are treated by the semi-Pelagians and Open Theists on this board. It is what it is. We are playing in their sandbox so to speak. The only thing we can do is defend what scripture teaches. This thread was started to discuss whether God determines all things, and consequently whether what God determines will come to pass. It is my opinion that the answer to these questions is "yes", that this is the teaching of scripture: Is. 46:9-10; Job 42:2; Is. 55:8-11; Rom. 9:11; Ps. 41:9, 69:25, 109:8; Eph. 1:4-5 et. al.

In the end the doctrine of God's sovereignty (which is what this is really about) is answered by scripture. I believe the Reformed interpretation of scripture on this issue is correct, or as correct as fallible creatures will ever be.

 

[Winman]

The only thing we can do is defend what scripture teaches. This thread was started to discuss whether God determines all things, and consequently whether what God determines will come to pass. It is my opinion that the answer to these questions is "yes", that this is the teaching of scripture: Is. 46:9-10; Job 42:2; Is. 55:8-11; Rom. 9:11; Ps. 41:9, 69:25, 109:8; Eph. 1:4-5 et. al.

There is a big difference between saying God determines all things, and saying that whatsoever God determines will come to pass. I do not know of any non-Cal that does not believe that whatever God determines will come to pass. Non-Cals and Arminians believe this just as strongly as you, whatever God determines will come to pass.

But that is not the same as saying God determines all things. The sciptures are clear that some things happen that God did not command or determine to happen.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

In Jeremiah the Jews were sacrificing their children to idols. God makes it quite clear that he had no involvement in this sin. He never commanded it or spoke it, and this idea never came into his mind or heart that they should sin this sin.

Did God know this was going on? YES. Did God allow the Jews to do this? YES, at least temporarily. But in no way did God determine in the sense of positively intending, causing, or desiring this sin.

None of the scriptures you showed as proof texts says God determined all things that come to pass. Show which of these scriptures say that.

 

[MB]

Your words speak for you! If you follow Jesus Christ then believe Him and His Word! If you believe you have to give Jesus Christ permission to save you you have a pathetic understanding of His Sacrifice!

I didn't imply that Christ needs permission. Personally I submitted to Christ. I willingly gave over myself to Christ to do with as He pleases.

If you think Paul was speaking of those who were already saved in Ephesians 2:1-7 then you need to improve your reading skills.

Then just who do you think he was writing to if not the Saints at Ephesus?
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Saints I believe are already saved and it is Saints the letter is addressed to. That means they were already saved. Maybe you should read the whole chapter in context.
MB