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Matthew 7
12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
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Has the Law of Moses Been Abolished?
- Thread starter christiang
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Matthew 7
12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Absolutely. The torah defines what love is. Its how we treat elohim and treat our neighbor
Yes "the Law of Moses" has been abolished but the Law of God that He wrote with His own finger on tablets of stone has not.
So you're saying its ok to commit sexual sins today with man or animal? Witchcraft okay now? How about drinking blood? Hmmm, is it okay to do any of the other prohibitions now? Are they just suggestions now? Where there is no law, there is no sin...
Lawless people...
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I notice that there are a lot of strategically placed ellipses in your quotation of scripture verses.
For instance, you said, "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..."
But Matthew 5:18 says, "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
That's kind of an important qualification to leave out, don't you think?
You wouldn't happen to post on CARM under the name "Juglans", would you? This is a very common tactic of his.
That is the problem. The Law has been presented as some type of overseer to God Himself (rather than keeping Israel from its giving until its fulfillment in Christ). This misunderstanding leads some to view Jesus as bound by the Law rather than fulfilling the Law, therefore powerless to accomplish the demands of the covenant (the covenant of the Law as stated in Deut. 5). Therefore Jesus, in this scheme, is only an addition to a series of events and covenants and we remain bound by the Mosaic Law. What is missing is the fact that the Law (and Scripture) points to Jesus. Without this understanding people are unable to deal with the Old Testament and the Law within redemptive history and we get the confusion we see here.
christiang
Member
Because the Law will not be accomplished until heaven and earth pass away, or are you not aware the the autumn festivals, which relate to the second coming of Jesus Christ, are still unfulfilled. I have a study on this here Why the Law Is Not Abolished, Yet Circumcision, Festivals, Sacrifices, Sabbaths, Foods Are No Longer Observed | Wisdom of God .
Again, why are you ignoring the rest of that verse?
xfrodobagginsx
Member
Jesus was speaking to Jews who were still under the Law. We are no longer under the law today, we are under Paul's gospel of Grace. Read Paul's writings. They were written to the Gentiles under Grace. The Gospel of the Kingdom was to the Jews under the Law at that time. It will be resumed when the rapture occurs and the Church is taken out of the way.
Whoa, that's totally full of false church teachings. What a totally wrong paragraph...
Its easy enough to say its wrong, but, the burden is on you to show why.
The fact is that Christ was "made under the Law," and ministered under the Law. Christ fulfilled the Law (and brought it to its "end" in the sense of completion) and established the New Covenant, whereby we are no longer under the Law.
As far as arguments such as these...
...we do not have to rely on the Law to know that sexual sin of any kind, or witchcraft, violates God's will, for we have numerous texts to consult to draw that conclusion. In regards to "drinking blood," the Jerusalem Council does not make these "Commandments of God," and states they "will do well" if they avoid those four things listed, which is obviously to avoid offending the sensibilities of Jews who were brought up under the Law and would continue to follow their heritage.
Which is okay for them, but not for you.
Hear the Gospel Jason, and embrace the New Covenant. You have already displayed a willingness to disobey God, and pervert His Holy Word. While the following passage had Hebrews in mind...
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
...it still applies to anyone that treads under foot the Son of God, counts His Sacrifice unholy, rejects the New Covenant itself, and refuses to hear what the Spirit says.
We are no longer under the Law, my friend, we are under the Covenant God promised to Israel, and rather than trying to take men back to the Law, you would do better to try to lead Jews to Christ.
Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
God bless.
For some reason Darrel, you're not understanding the hebrew verses correctly. If you sin willfully, that is what causes you to trample upon the blood of Yeshua. He died because of your sinning, and then you go on willfully sinning afterwards? That is like spitting in his face.
We are indeed under the law of Elohim always - old and new covenant:
Eze 11:19 “And I shall give them one heart, and put a new spirit within you. And I shall take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
Eze 11:20 so that they walk in My laws, and guard My right-rulings, and shall do them. And they shall be My people and I shall be their Elohim.
Eze 11:21 “But to those whose hearts walk after the heart of their disgusting matters and their abominations, I shall recompense their deeds on their own heads,” declares the Master YHVH.
Eze 11:20 so that they walk in My laws, and guard My right-rulings, and shall do them. And they shall be My people and I shall be their Elohim.
Eze 11:21 “But to those whose hearts walk after the heart of their disgusting matters and their abominations, I shall recompense their deeds on their own heads,” declares the Master YHVH.
What teaches you right from wrong? It is the WORD. Torah shows what is acceptable and not acceptable. If you go according to the world you go by what is right in your own eyes and accept things like homosexuality, divorce, pedophilia, and all other wicked matters. Walk according to the spirit and you are walking according to the written word.
"Christians believe the Bible's teaching that works are a result of salvation, not a means of salvation. "
Is the argument I often hear and this argument is derived from Romans 3.
Romans 3
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Well clearly the "GOOD WORKS" questioned in romans 3 was the Judaisers bringing up circumcision required to be saved.
I would say circumcision is not required at all. But if you want to believe that works is a result of salvation, Then I expect everyone of you who declares to be justified by "faith alone" now actually having the faith has now been circumcised as "a result of salvation".
I also expect each of you to maintain the Sabbath and the entire list of "WORKS" as "a result of salvation"
Point being "works" being a result of salvation is nonsense.
The correct teaching is only Jewish Ceremonial Laws were negated. But since you want to stretch it to mean all good works. Fine we are now playing this game.
So I want to hear you observe Sabbaths days as Jews and are circumcised "as a result of your salvation".
Is the argument I often hear and this argument is derived from Romans 3.
Romans 3
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Well clearly the "GOOD WORKS" questioned in romans 3 was the Judaisers bringing up circumcision required to be saved.
I would say circumcision is not required at all. But if you want to believe that works is a result of salvation, Then I expect everyone of you who declares to be justified by "faith alone" now actually having the faith has now been circumcised as "a result of salvation".
I also expect each of you to maintain the Sabbath and the entire list of "WORKS" as "a result of salvation"
Point being "works" being a result of salvation is nonsense.
The correct teaching is only Jewish Ceremonial Laws were negated. But since you want to stretch it to mean all good works. Fine we are now playing this game.
So I want to hear you observe Sabbaths days as Jews and are circumcised "as a result of your salvation".
I don't think you've read other stuff I've posted. In those I state that oral laws are what the issues were most times in Paul's letters and Yeshua's beef with the religious leaders. Written law is always applicable.
I keep the 7th day sabbath, but not as the jews do. They have over 1000 man made laws on how to keep it while scripture has very few (mainly no work).
Circumcision is still a sign of the abrahamic covenant. It is not, however, a requirement to enter into faith as the judaisers wanted.
Paul's teaching on being justified by faith apart from "works of the law" means you can't be justified by man-made law. We can prove this point with multiple verses showing that written law is a means of justification:
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Rom_2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Deu 6:25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before YHVH our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’
Rom_2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Deu 6:25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before YHVH our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’
Well lets look at it, Jason, and see which one of us is incorrect. I can tell you now that the verse has nothing to do with Christians sinning, it deals, as does the book in large part, with Hebrews under Law who are associated with the Name of Christ. Read Chapter 5 to see his rebuke of their ignorance. In regards to Chapter 10, read the whole chapter. It deals with the issue of remission of sins. Where he is speaking about Christians that are sanctified by Christ, he wakes it clear...there is no more sacrifice for sins. The reason there is no more sacrifice for sins is because just as God promised...sin is forgiven in totality. That is what the Greek conveys, as well as the context.
So I will point out again the contrast between the Covenant of Law (Mosaic Covenant) and the New Covenant being contrasted here, and again say, with absolute confidence based on years of study in Hebrews, that in view are not those who have received the Law of Moses, nor those who have received Christ, The Sacrifice of Christ, the New Covenant, or the Holy Ghost, but those...
...who reject it:
https://www.baptistboard.com/bible/hebrews/10:26-29/
https://www.baptistboard.com/bible/hebrews/10:26-29/
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The blue is speaking of rejecters of the (Covenant of) Law, and the green is speaking about the rejecters of the New Covenant. These have trodden under foot Christ, counted His Sacrifice unholy (as opposed to the sacrifice of the Law), which means they reject His Sacrifice (which is the only Sacrifice that can save), and have rejected the Spirit of Truth.
That is why, if they sin willfully, "there is no more sacrifice for sins," because they are rejecting the only sacrifice that can save them.
But let's look at this short passage, and thresh it out, rather than jump around.
You exegete the passage and then expound upon what you think the writer is saying.
God bless.
Let's not forget:
Ephesians 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Secondly, only good trees produce good fruit, and the question is, what is a good tree?
The answer is a born again believer. And how are we born again?
Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
The natural man cannot do good works, for, he is not a vessel suitable to good works, but dead works:
Hebrews 9:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
We simply cannot consider ourselves in union with God through the New Covenant unless we are born again, and regeneration is not something a man can accomplish. Christ is the Baptizer, and it is He that places us in union with God, reconciling us to God on an eternal basis, and that stands outside of the physical realm and the abilities of man. That is why we see so often that it is the Blood of Christ that saves us, and that is how we enter the Kingdom of God:
Colossians 1:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
We have to separate the physical/temporal from the Spiritual/Eternal in Scripture, or, we diminish the magnitude of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
God bless.
I agree with your post, but it does need more explaining.
Who is Jesus? He is the word. So to be "baptised" we need to be washed by the word.
The word is torah (written scriptures). If we are washed by the written scriptures and redeemed by the sacrifice (blood) then we are a new creation:
Rev 14:12 Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of Yeshua.
1Pe 1:23 having been born again – not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible – through the living Word of Elohim, which remains forever,
1Pe 1:24 because “All flesh is as grass, and all the esteem of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls away,
1Pe 1:25 but the Word of Elohim remains forever.” And this is the Word, announced as Good News to you.
Joh 3:7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You have to be born from above.’ 1Pe 1:23 having been born again – not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible – through the living Word of Elohim, which remains forever,
1Pe 1:24 because “All flesh is as grass, and all the esteem of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls away,
1Pe 1:25 but the Word of Elohim remains forever.” And this is the Word, announced as Good News to you.
Joh 3:8 “The Spirit breathes where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”
It is the spirit that teaches us and guides us into all truth. Torah is truth:
Joh_17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Psa_119:142 Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth.
Psa_119:142 Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth.
Show us the scripture stating plainly that the written law is more applicable then oral.
I will challenge the opposite:
2 Corinthians 3
2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Do you agree with scripture? Is written with ink superior to the spirit of the living God? Is tablet of stone superior to the human heart?
If you do not provide scripture, will you follow scripture?
Darrell, I agree hebrews 10 is talking about those rejected the gift. If you are sinning willfully it is reviling YHVH, it is rebellion, and it is rejecting the redemptive work of Yeshua. Going to hebrews 5 like you asked turns up this nugget:
Heb 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting deliverance to all those obeying Him,
The rest of that chapter talks about the better priesthood (which is what all of hebrews is about).
You are right, however, that the rejection of yeshua's sacrifice is different. In the torah, the sin sacrifice was for accidental sins, while Yeshua's was for all sins. So if you sin wilfully afterwards, there is no more sin sacrifice because there wasn't one in the torah for it. Yeshua was the only acceptable offering in this regards (All this is my best opinion). Here are some proofs for you:
Lev 4:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, saying, ‘When a being sins by mistake against any of the commands of יהוה, which are not to be done, and shall do any of them:
Lev 4:13 ‘And if the entire congregation of Yisra’ĕl strays by mistake, and the matter has been hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done against any of the commands of YHVH, which are not to be done, and shall be guilty,
Lev 4:22 ‘When a ruler sins, and by mistake has done against any of the commands of יהוה his Elohim which are not to be done, and shall be guilty
Lev 4:27 ‘And if any being of the people of the land sins by mistake by doing against any of the commands of יהוה which are not to be done, and shall be guilty,
Lev 5:17 “And when any being sins, and has done what is not to be done, against any of the commands of YHVH, though he knew it not, yet he shall be guilty and shall bear his crookedness.
Why is willful sin so different? This is what YHVH has to say:Lev 4:22 ‘When a ruler sins, and by mistake has done against any of the commands of יהוה his Elohim which are not to be done, and shall be guilty
Lev 4:27 ‘And if any being of the people of the land sins by mistake by doing against any of the commands of יהוה which are not to be done, and shall be guilty,
Lev 5:17 “And when any being sins, and has done what is not to be done, against any of the commands of YHVH, though he knew it not, yet he shall be guilty and shall bear his crookedness.
Num 15:30 ‘But the being who does whatever defiantly, whether he is native or a stranger, he reviles יהוה, and that being shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 ‘Because he has despised the word of YHVH, and has broken His command, that being shall certainly be cut off, his crookedness is upon him.’ ”
Num 15:31 ‘Because he has despised the word of YHVH, and has broken His command, that being shall certainly be cut off, his crookedness is upon him.’ ”
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