Internet Theologian
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My thoughts as well.
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Have you heard the voice of God? Or, if He talks, what ways do you hear Him?
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My thoughts as well.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Yes, good passage. Also Hebrew 12:14.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Good passage yet he is speaking of the written Word as being even more sure than revelations, and even his revelation was valid as is recorded in Scripture to which he compares the two.
That would leave subjective means on an even lower level of dependability. So along these lines it always goes back to the written Word. I cannot see how the above passage even remotely supports extra-biblical revelation but I do thank you for the time you spent responding.
Not certain why you would suggest that I was not reporting the statement of Peter accurately. What you may have missed was the emphasis upon what was going to take place as the believer matured, which is the phrase that I dwelt upon, not what the folks read of the Scriptures or was reported by Peter (and others) as having been fulfilled of Prophecy concerning the Messiah which you seemed caught upon.
Perhaps you are looking for something to read into the writing. Or, perhaps you didn't finish reading what I wrote.
Here is one paragraph:
... I am not suggesting some modern charismatic froth, rather that which comes by spending a great abundance and continued time both in the Word, in prayer, in fasting(s), in worship, in sincerity, and in emptiness seeking His filling. The clouds of this flesh, and this living would shadow the sun. Although the day is lit, the sun is filtered and unseen. Many believers (imo) read the Scriptures, can even read out loud the Scriptures, but never hear the enlightenment of those Scriptures by the Holy Spirit. The Son is shadowed by the immediacy, the ears stopped by the extraneous noise, the senses dulled by cliche and programmed worship. (emphasis added by me)
"Hearing from God," always means that one is hearing something that is Biblical. As stated in an early post, one must be schooled in "trying the spirits" as John points out, as well as other posters who mention that not all that they are impulsed (finding a wallet) is from God.
"Extra Biblical" has become an ugly wording because of the backlash toward the charismatic show boaters who desire to deceive. At no time in the post I made did I ever indicate that the work of God speaking to a believer would depart from consistency with the Word of God.
However, I know of no believers who will not admit that in some way God has lead and guided them in an "extra biblical" sense. Do you not consider that as "hearing" from God?
Here is an example of one who I hold in great esteem.
Frances Havergal, a short lived person who had great intellect, wrote:
Amid the broken waters of our ever-restless thought,
Oh be my verse an answering gleam from higher radiance caught;
That where through dark o’erarching boughs of sorrow, doubt and sin,
The glorious Star of Bethlehem upon the flood looks in,
Its tiny trembling ray may bid some downcast vision turn
To that enkindling Light, for which all earthly shadows yearn.
Oh be my verse a hidden stream, which silently may flow
Where drooping leaf and thirsty flower in lonely valleys grow;
And often by its shady course to pilgrim hearts be brought,
The quiet and refreshment of an upward-pointing thought;
Till, blending with the broad bright stream of sanctified endeavor,
God’s glory be its ocean home, the end it seeketh ever.
One of her well known poems is:Oh be my verse an answering gleam from higher radiance caught;
That where through dark o’erarching boughs of sorrow, doubt and sin,
The glorious Star of Bethlehem upon the flood looks in,
Its tiny trembling ray may bid some downcast vision turn
To that enkindling Light, for which all earthly shadows yearn.
Oh be my verse a hidden stream, which silently may flow
Where drooping leaf and thirsty flower in lonely valleys grow;
And often by its shady course to pilgrim hearts be brought,
The quiet and refreshment of an upward-pointing thought;
Till, blending with the broad bright stream of sanctified endeavor,
God’s glory be its ocean home, the end it seeketh ever.
- Take my life and let it be
Consecrated, Lord, to Thee.
Take my moments and my days,
Let them flow in endless praise. - Take my hands and let them move
At the impulse of Thy love.
Take my feet and let them be
Swift and beautiful for Thee. - Take my voice and let me sing,
Always, only for my King.
Take my lips and let them be
Filled with messages from Thee. - Take my silver and my gold,
Not a mite would I withhold.
Take my intellect and use
Every pow’r as Thou shalt choose. - Take my will and make it Thine,
It shall be no longer mine.
Take my heart, it is Thine own,
It shall be Thy royal throne. - Take my love, my Lord, I pour
At Thy feet its treasure store.
Take myself and I will be
Ever, only, all for Thee.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
If that then is the case then I believe you have missed Peter's point entirely. 'More sure word of Prophecy...' even above personal revelation it stands.
Then we have this:
With all due respect what is happening in the above is simply distorting the term 'extra-biblical'. When God leads it is never thus (extra-biblical) but always according to His Word so to label that (hearing) as 'extra-biblical' is a misnomer or misusage. By the way, I don't concern myself with the charismatic in letting them have a monopoly on terminology but use that terminology in a correct manner.
You've also stated this, which is what I intended to look at when I asked you to elaborate:
That is what I was getting at. When a pastor preaches the Word, in which he believes to be the very Word of God, then he has accomplished the above. To bring this to another subjective level of some other 'hearing' as some proof of validity or as a test is unfortunate, and, in my honest opinion, starts a downgrade on the authority of the Scriptures. Nothing in Scripture makes such a requirement brother.
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FROM A SERMON i WAS READING AT DINNER TIME;
http://www.alfredplacechurch.org.uk...s/115-17-the-crucial-importance-of-knowledge/
Is it my comprehension that comes into question?
Are not you the one ignoring the later part of the statement in which I addressed?
For sure and certain, there is no argument between us as to the "More sure word of prophecy..." but you have yet to make an mention of that which I drew fromof Peter that follows. In context with Peter's statement of the "more sure word" is that which comes by maturity is enlightenment.
Of course, it would also seem you are most uncomfortable with the term "extra biblical," taking it to mean something such as some charismatic groups. That some boast in the flesh being given some grand revelation (such as the Gaithers - that their music is as inspired as the Scriptures) is using the extremist view of the term extra biblical.
Why not use it in terms which occurs as the believer listens to the impulse of the Holy Spirit in their everyday living who is pledged to guide and direct us into all truth. Am I not very specific in such sentiment? Sure, some may find it a bit "uncomfortable" or even consider it deminishes the authority of the Scripture, but it shouldn't and doesn't.
Rather than a pastor teaching discernment, the typical immature believer runs to this fleshly or that fleshly, so much so, that the enemy is now copying and causing some to chase after ever nire fleshly emotional experiences rather than the truth as presented in Scriptures. Rather than sit quietly and meditate upon that of God, the typical believer has to be pump and puffed up.
Certainly, you remember that the typical pew sitter is obliged to "not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.(Paul's statement).
That the typical pew sitter is obliged to "not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." (John's statement).
The authority of the Scriptures is placed above any humankind. That includes all humankind not in the least pastors, preachers, teachers. And it is the responsibility of the individual believer.
Note: Paul's statement did not become of no effect when the cannon was formed by humans. Prophetic utterances are what Preachers are supposed to do - EVERY time they proclaim.
Therefore, what I said stands. Despite what you consider that a pastor should or should not do. EACH believer is responsible to learn discernment.
It is THAT which I encourage, and it comes through not merely the external of preaching and teaching "the Word" as if that is some magic bullet, but the daily exercise of the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer. That which brings the believer to the gifts, and brings the believer to enlightenment. Such does not diminish the importance of the Word, but removes it from the pastor being the final authority of what is truth.
See, above that part of your statement "When a pastor preaches the Word, in which he believes to be the very Word of God, ..." I have a HUGE problem. For such men have committed great fraud upon the believers. Not a few have puffed themselves up into such authority and idols as to teach the very Word of God to their own deceitfulness. Just as the Lord told the religious righteous of His time, they preached good, but left some things undone. (my paraphrase version).
Believers must mature. They must learn and practice discernment of the spirits.
Thee preacher needs to teach himself out of a job. EVERY believer in the assembly should be as mature as anyone else, able to discern the Holy Spirit from all others, and be equipped to give an answer for any and all matters of faith and practice.
Not relying upon "my preacher says" or "my church believes;" rather, "I have been taught by God..."
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
I can't hear good and I usually have ask someone to repeat themselves when they address me but from now on I will know it's the Lord if I don't have to ask them the second time.
I have a daughter who can help you in 2 years when she's done with her doctorate in audiology.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
I believe He speaks by His completed word and work.ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
I believe He speaks by His completed word and work.ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup
Not certain how the intent if this passage is put in the past tense.
Can you please show from history how according to verse 27 all that remains cannot be shaken?
Just experienced a small earth quake and as Elvis sang, "All shook up".
Some understand the shaking to be the inauguration of the Eternal Kingdom......the Jewish theocracy that was was vanishing away.....and vs 28 speaks of the New Kingdom beginning in Christ.....small but growing like in the parable of the mustard seed.
The language used in verse 28 he says we receiving a kingdom in other words it was already there to be received. He says the kingdom which cannot be moved.
Does that help a little bit?
In other words the main portion of the kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom redemptive Kingdom so it's not as dependent on the outward circumstances of this present world as it is that we secure a place in Christ and look forward to going into the eternal state New Heaven and New Earth.
Compare the language of Luke 17 :20 - 21 the kingdom of God is within you
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Ok
I consider the passage a bit differently. Seems as though verse 25 is indicating that the refusal to hear him speak is a warning to believers who turn deaf in hearing the Holy Spirit.
The following verses would then be the future shaking (verse 26) that awaits both the heaven and earth based upon the previous shaking that was only on this earth.
When then was that first shaking?
Perhaps it was that great earthquake when the Lord Jesus Christ said, "it is finished."
That would place a second shaking of both heaven and earth upon His return. The results making the Mount of Olives split in two, the navigable river forming making Jerusalem a sea port. I know some don't have that view of some prophecies.
However, because there is the statement of a place that cannot be shaken, then that last shaking could also be the final melt down of both the current earth and heaven with the establishment of that final permanent estate for both believers and unbelievers. (That is what I am more inclined to hold).
I no longer look for a physical earthquake....
How do you explain vs 28 in your view....
It speaks of us receiving a kingdom. ..which cannot be moved....what is that?
Also agedman....in the true Israel thread read the last 5 posts
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Last evening, I shouldn't have responded, but gone on to bed, for my alertness was dimmed, my responses askew
This part of Hebrews 12 is contrasting the estate and difference in authority between the OT law given at Mt. Sinai shackled and that of the believers who are given great authority to boldly go where even Mosses trembled and shook while he ascended.
It is that context that the verses you posted must be seen.
The believer is not to shut their ears to that spoken to them, for God holds them even more accountable because of the privileged attention given that the ancients didn't enjoy.
"His voice shook the earth then" refers to the great scene of Sinai that is recorded.
"Yet once more..." refers to that final shaking (as stated above) when heaven and earth pass away and the permanent replaces it.
In the original, "since we receive" is actually one word. The view is that of one who has taken from, admit, taken with or alongside, acknowledged. The same word is used in John when Jesus said, "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
Believers receive a kingdom it is a reality in which the believer is to be grateful. That gratitude is displayed in acceptable service done in reverence and awe.
For example: I have a will. In that will there are items in which the children receive. The items are considered given to them specifically, yet such remain in my authority and care until that appointed time the physical transfer is made. My children are grateful that they receive (present tense) the inheritance and will receive the inheritance. (the awe and servitude we leave out ). They have experienced papa's "consuming fire."
This earth can and will be shaken - the heavens and earth will pass away. That is the promise. Death comes to all even to everything humankind imagines. There is that which cannot be shaken - the new heaven and new earth.
This part of Hebrews 12 is contrasting the estate and difference in authority between the OT law given at Mt. Sinai shackled and that of the believers who are given great authority to boldly go where even Mosses trembled and shook while he ascended.
It is that context that the verses you posted must be seen.
The believer is not to shut their ears to that spoken to them, for God holds them even more accountable because of the privileged attention given that the ancients didn't enjoy.
"His voice shook the earth then" refers to the great scene of Sinai that is recorded.
"Yet once more..." refers to that final shaking (as stated above) when heaven and earth pass away and the permanent replaces it.
Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.
This verse is not indicating the kingdom is already received, but that which is already held in trust. It is ours, yet not fully acquired in the physical sense. We have not received the kingdom, we receive the kingdom - a slight but very important nuance.
In the original, "since we receive" is actually one word. The view is that of one who has taken from, admit, taken with or alongside, acknowledged. The same word is used in John when Jesus said, "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
Believers receive a kingdom it is a reality in which the believer is to be grateful. That gratitude is displayed in acceptable service done in reverence and awe.
For example: I have a will. In that will there are items in which the children receive. The items are considered given to them specifically, yet such remain in my authority and care until that appointed time the physical transfer is made. My children are grateful that they receive (present tense) the inheritance and will receive the inheritance. (the awe and servitude we leave out
). They have experienced papa's "consuming fire." This earth can and will be shaken - the heavens and earth will pass away. That is the promise. Death comes to all even to everything humankind imagines. There is that which cannot be shaken - the new heaven and new earth.
from bible study tools;
or, (1.) He now speaks from a higher and more glorious seat and throne, not from mount Sinai, which was on this earth, but from heaven. (2.) He speaks now more immediately by his inspired word and by his Spirit, which are his witnesses. He speaks not now any new thing to men, but by his Spirit speaks the same word home to the conscience. (3.) He speaks now more powerfully and effectually. Then indeed his voice shook the earth, but now, by introducing the gospel state, he hath shaken not only the earth, but the heavens,—not only shaken the hills and mountains, or the spirits of men, or the civil state of the land of Canaan, to make room for his people,—not only shaken the world, as he then did, but he hath shaken the church, that is, the Jewish nation, and shaken them in their church-state, which was in Old-Testament times a heaven upon earth; this their heavenly spiritual state he hath now shaken. It is by the gospel from heaven that God shook to pieces the civil and ecclesiastical state of the Jewish nation, and introduced a new state of the church, that cannot be removed, shall never be changed for any other on earth, but shall remain till it be made perfect in heaven.2. When God speaks to men in the most excellent manner, the guilt of those who refuse him is the greater, and their punishment will be more unavoidable and intolerable; there is no escaping, no bearing it, v. 25. The different manner of God’s dealing with men under the gospel, in a way of grace, assures us that he will deal with the despisers of the gospel after a different manner than he does with other men, in a way of judgment. The glory of the gospel, which should greatly recommend it to our regard, appears in these three things:—
(1.) It was by the sound of the gospel trumpet that the former dispensation and state of the church of God were shaken and removed; and shall we despise that voice of God that pulled down a church and state of so long standing and of God’s own building? (2.) It was by the sound of the gospel trumpet that a new kingdom was erected for God in the world, which can never be so shaken as to be removed. This was a change made once for all; no other change shall take place till time shall be no more. We have now received a kingdom that cannot be moved, shall never be removed, never give way to any new dispensation. The canon of scripture is now perfected, the Spirit of prophecy has ceased, the mystery of God is finished, he has put his last hand to it. The gospel church may be made more large, more prosperous more purified from contracted pollution, but it shall never be altered for another dispensation; those who perish under the gospel perish without remedy. And hence the apostle justly concludes,
[1.] How necessary it is for us to obtain grace from God, to serve him acceptably: if we be not accepted of God under this dispensation, we shall never be accepted at all; and we lose all our labour in religion if we be not accepted of God.
[2.] We cannot worship God acceptably, unless we worship him with godly reverence and fear. As faith, so holy fear, is necessary to acceptable worship.
[3.] It is only the grace of God that enables us to worship God in a right manner: nature cannot come up to it; it can produce neither that precious faith nor that holy fear that is necessary to acceptable worship.
4.] God is the same just and righteous God under the gospel that he appeared to be under the law. Though he be our God in Christ, and now deals with us in a more kind and gracious way, yet he is in himself a consuming fire; that is, a God of strict justice, who will avenge himself on all the despisers of his grace, and upon all apostates. Under the gospel, the justice of God is displayed in a more awful manner, though not in so sensible a manner as under the law; for here we behold divine justice seizing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and making him a propitiatory sacrifice, his soul and body an offering for sin, which is a display of justice far beyond what was seen and heard on mount Sinai when the law was given.
or, (1.) He now speaks from a higher and more glorious seat and throne, not from mount Sinai, which was on this earth, but from heaven. (2.) He speaks now more immediately by his inspired word and by his Spirit, which are his witnesses. He speaks not now any new thing to men, but by his Spirit speaks the same word home to the conscience. (3.) He speaks now more powerfully and effectually. Then indeed his voice shook the earth, but now, by introducing the gospel state, he hath shaken not only the earth, but the heavens,—not only shaken the hills and mountains, or the spirits of men, or the civil state of the land of Canaan, to make room for his people,—not only shaken the world, as he then did, but he hath shaken the church, that is, the Jewish nation, and shaken them in their church-state, which was in Old-Testament times a heaven upon earth; this their heavenly spiritual state he hath now shaken. It is by the gospel from heaven that God shook to pieces the civil and ecclesiastical state of the Jewish nation, and introduced a new state of the church, that cannot be removed, shall never be changed for any other on earth, but shall remain till it be made perfect in heaven.2. When God speaks to men in the most excellent manner, the guilt of those who refuse him is the greater, and their punishment will be more unavoidable and intolerable; there is no escaping, no bearing it, v. 25. The different manner of God’s dealing with men under the gospel, in a way of grace, assures us that he will deal with the despisers of the gospel after a different manner than he does with other men, in a way of judgment. The glory of the gospel, which should greatly recommend it to our regard, appears in these three things:—
(1.) It was by the sound of the gospel trumpet that the former dispensation and state of the church of God were shaken and removed; and shall we despise that voice of God that pulled down a church and state of so long standing and of God’s own building? (2.) It was by the sound of the gospel trumpet that a new kingdom was erected for God in the world, which can never be so shaken as to be removed. This was a change made once for all; no other change shall take place till time shall be no more. We have now received a kingdom that cannot be moved, shall never be removed, never give way to any new dispensation. The canon of scripture is now perfected, the Spirit of prophecy has ceased, the mystery of God is finished, he has put his last hand to it. The gospel church may be made more large, more prosperous more purified from contracted pollution, but it shall never be altered for another dispensation; those who perish under the gospel perish without remedy. And hence the apostle justly concludes,
[1.] How necessary it is for us to obtain grace from God, to serve him acceptably: if we be not accepted of God under this dispensation, we shall never be accepted at all; and we lose all our labour in religion if we be not accepted of God.
[2.] We cannot worship God acceptably, unless we worship him with godly reverence and fear. As faith, so holy fear, is necessary to acceptable worship.
[3.] It is only the grace of God that enables us to worship God in a right manner: nature cannot come up to it; it can produce neither that precious faith nor that holy fear that is necessary to acceptable worship.
4.] God is the same just and righteous God under the gospel that he appeared to be under the law. Though he be our God in Christ, and now deals with us in a more kind and gracious way, yet he is in himself a consuming fire; that is, a God of strict justice, who will avenge himself on all the despisers of his grace, and upon all apostates. Under the gospel, the justice of God is displayed in a more awful manner, though not in so sensible a manner as under the law; for here we behold divine justice seizing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and making him a propitiatory sacrifice, his soul and body an offering for sin, which is a display of justice far beyond what was seen and heard on mount Sinai when the law was given.
Aged man....here are some excerpts from jonathan edwards;
"
"
If I want to hear from the Lord, I just open my bible.
I have even heard people say the Lord has shown them things in their dreams. I used to think that way, too, but no more. I have had dreams that, if the dream 'from the Lord' was valid, then my wife could divorce me for committing adultery.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
As far as what is said above concerning the Kingdom I am reminded of this as some deny it being wherein the saints, who are alive now, dwell spiritually:
'May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy. giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.' Colossians 1:12-14
Then, let us be reminded of this passage and consider our own walk, whether we can learn, listen, be corrected (unless our behavior be as the apostate described below) or simply hit the 'dislike' button, which button I believe to be juvenile when used only to denigrate another or dismiss truth:
Woe to her who is rebellious and defiled,
the oppressing city!
She listens to no voice;
she accepts no correction.
She does not trust in the LORD;
She does not draw near to her God. Zephaniah 3:1-2
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