He is the propitiation for our sins:

[Brightfame52]

At one point in your life the wrath of God abode on you, you became elect when Christ paid the blood price for your sin and you were adopted into the second Adam, you weren't born already adopted...


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The Elect were Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph1:4

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ died for the sins of the whole world.
MB

I reckon you are not going to answer my question, that is fine.

 

[Titus Tarnum]

So we were not them, we were different because of the love God had for us before time began, that is when were were called, and that is according to the power of God.

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

This ones easy[emoji3] my Bible links this verse to Romans 16:25 for context;

Romans 16:25

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began.
:26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—

It seems like what we are failing to acknowledge that every person needs salvation and is capable of receiving salvation. Election has been misinterpreted as happening before the foundation of the world making only certain people capable of being saved.
God has always known who He would be able to save but it doesn't say anywhere that He only wrote the elect in the Book of Life and He didn't write the rest of humanity down anywhere. Using the Book of Life as proof that God only WANTS to save some people is an unscriptural assumption that weakens the argument that God is sovereign over our salvation because it contains false assumptions. Get away from saying God only intends/wants to save the Elect and argue that God had to know who He would be able to save since He is omniscient. Through God's omniscience He knew that He would have to pay the blood price for those who BECOME elect and then adopt you into His body. Through God's omniscience He always knew the end state of Satan, hell and death and us. God knew the middle from the beginning and the ending from the middle so He knew it all and there is no way to change it. (if you never were a sinner needing salvation Christ didn't need to die for your sin. Rom 11:7 to obtain election means you didn't have it before)
If Adam and Eve were never forgiven by God someday they will stand before Him in judgment and He will tell them "I never knew you" because their name was in the Book but was blotted out so there won't be a record of them, unless you continue to perpetuate the false assumption that only the Elect are in the Book, not even the founders of humanity.
Arminianism says that names are written in the Book when you are saved which doesn't have a scriptural basis either. The Bible only says names are written the Book before the foundation of the world. The only answer to this theological Dilemma is that the Book of Life contains the names of everyone in creation, and though it's a Book of life, it's a Book of the living creations of God and by default if your name is still in it at the Judgment you have remained one of God's creations.
Knowing that my name is in the Book is another reason I believe in God's sovereignty. If my name is in His Book I can't remove it, it's His Book and only God can erase my name, so unless I sin to the point I am no longer a creation of God and have become a child of Satan and God blots my name from His Book, there is still hope for me, but I believe God has the ultimate choice as to whether my name stays in His Book.

I believe once you are saved the likelihood that you can lose your salvation is nill, almost/nill because I haven't seen a scripture example showing a saved person lost their salvation. The Arminianism Fifth Article of the Remonstrance says it's possible but they haven't shown me anything solid.
I'm it though; I am the only one who believes this way out of both sides of the Calvinist/Arminianism debate, but I pray someday someone else will see the truth in this!


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[Titus Tarnum]

The Whole World of 1 Jn 2:2 is a Justified World, made so by Christs propitiation for their sins. Now God acts in mercy in regards to their sins, He will be merciful to their unrighteousness Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful[propitious] to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Their unrighteousness covers a multitude of sins, their unbelief ! The word unrighteousness here is also translated iniquity:

Like here in Luke 13:27

But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity

Its the same word unrighteousness found here in Rom 1:18 twice

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

So those who are of the whole world of 1 Jn 2:2, God because of Christ hath promised to be merciful unto their unrighteousness, that includes their pre and post conversion life !

Except Hebrews 8:12 is discussing people under the New Covenant so it only applies to New Covenant believers please read the verses surrounding verse 12

Hebrews 8:11
None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


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[George Antonios]

We start with inherent human faith and when God through His Word opens your understanding with supernatural evidence of "invisible things" you believe, you won't make the jump without the evidence He provides.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Did you know that God prepares your mind like good ground for Paul to plant the Word in and then God provides the increase in your SAVING faith?

1 Corinthians 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

Mark 4:20
But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

Did you know that faith is half of the salvation equation so if you believe we are saved through our inherent faith you are literally providing half of the equation?

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Do you think God provides grace, but faith isn't a gift of God?


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[Titus Tarnum]

Please cite a reference to "inherent human faith" in scripture and provide a definition for "inherent human faith."

If you start with ambiguity, you will end in speculation.

If your faith isn't in God what is it in? You have to start with your faith being in something other than God.
The definition of inherent is "existing in something as permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.
Do you want me to show you a scripture that says man has faith built into him; I will as soon as you show me a scripture saying man has 10 fingers and 10 toes.


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[Titus Tarnum]

The Elect were Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph1:4

Yes this is true, but we weren't born sinless, already adopted and we didn't know that we would be saved, God did. We go through a process of salvation, of sin awareness, of repentance and acknowledgment of Jesus Christ that Is necessary in God's plan. If God could bring everyone through this process He would, but somehow He is prevented. The way election is often portrayed is that God only wants His elect and the rest be damned. On top of this some people claim that God elected His Elect and created the rest already damned/wicked making God the creator of evil people.


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[Titus Tarnum]

Use your words please, I am not watching a 20 min video for you [emoji3]

Might I ask if you are familiar with the Forth article of the Remonstrance?

 

[Titus Tarnum]

Well this evening I had some time and I listened to your guy anyways. Your guy mentions choosing and irresistible grace only briefly and is hung up on proving that faith isn't at work. The reason I asked you about the fourth article of the remonstrance is because that is where prevenient Grace resides in Arminianism.

He mentions Romans 4:4, 5 but doesn't say how someone comes up with the power to believe so to clarify I am not saying you provide half of your salvation by working I am saying that if you come up with belief on your own without the aid of God you are providing the belief/faith. You provide the power to choose through your personal faith and not through God's preparation . Gosh this is painful; I'm watching it and listening to how he points out the obvious that faith and works are different constantly without realizing it's not about faith being a work but about faith being a personal choice or not.
In minute 12.3 about there he starts finally actually agreeing that the initiation of faith comes from God which we can agree on. Without God's intervention you won't have faith that's what I was trying to point out by God preparing your ground for the seed. If God prepares your ground and you are good ground you are going to grow wheat. A wheat field doesn't think "well I just don't feel like growing wheat today" and it's my option. A seed when properly nourished will grow wheat that's what it's meant to do that's what you're meant to do that's why it is irresistible grace that grows faith.
Around minute 13 he says it is up to man's freewill to believe so he saying nothing new but I have a question for you; if everyone has freewill, everyone must be brought to a point where they can use that freewill to choose or to reject Christ per the definition of prevenient grace or freewill isn't honored. Do you believe every person throughout time and humanity has been given the option to except or reject Christ and seeing how ultimately in most Arminianism beliefs there really isn't a cut off for that, do you believe that every person throughout time in humanity has been given the option to believe in Jesus Christ throughout their lives until they die? That means all the Chaldean's and the Palestinians and the Babylonians that where Israel's enemy were given the choice to follow Jesus Christ and they all rejected Him. When they should've been welcoming Israel they were persecuting Israel, Jesus Christ's chosen instrument. And even in Israel only a remnant will be saved because evidently not many of them had faith in Jesus Christ either.
Around minute 14 he says that the gospel is the power of God but the power doesn't come with the Gospel. So go back to Mark 4:20 The gospel which is necessary is planted in your prepared field which is also necessary; the preparation of your mind comes before the gospel if your mind is full of rocks and weeds it doesn't matter how much gospel you throw on it you're not gonna grow faith in Christ. He says the gospel does convict you but doesn't provide the faith; I'm saying if your ground isn't prepared it's not even going to convict you; you have to be able to receive the Word of God for it to do any good and God provides the increase of your faith, of your saving faith.
Freewheel says that the only reason we're not in the garden now is because Adam had freewill and made a mistake that cost countless people their souls. So if Adam would've rebuffed Satan, Christ would have never had to die on the cross.
Arminianism paints a rosy picture where Satan isn't even an issue because God is able to get to every person throughout time with something equivalent to the gospel so why even preach the gospel if God already does this?


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[George Antonios]

Well this evening I had some time and I listened to your guy anyways. Your guy mentions choosing and irresistible grace only briefly and is hung up on proving that faith isn't at work. The reason I asked you about the fourth article of the remonstrance is because that is where prevenient Grace resides in Arminianism.

He mentions Romans 4:4, 5 but doesn't say how someone comes up with the power to believe so to clarify I am not saying you provide half of your salvation by working I am saying that if you come up with belief on your own without the aid of God you are providing the belief/faith. You provide the power to choose through your personal faith and not through God's preparation . Gosh this is painful; I'm watching it and listening to how he points out the obvious that faith and works are different constantly without realizing it's not about faith being a work but about faith being a personal choice or not.
In minute 12.3 about there he starts finally actually agreeing that the initiation of faith comes from God which we can agree on. Without God's intervention you won't have faith that's what I was trying to point out by God preparing your ground for the seed. If God prepares your ground and you are good ground you are going to grow wheat. A wheat field doesn't think "well I just don't feel like growing wheat today" and it's my option. A seed when properly nourished will grow wheat that's what it's meant to do that's what you're meant to do that's why it is irresistible grace that grows faith.
Around minute 13 he says it is up to man's freewill to believe so he saying nothing new but I have a question for you; if everyone has freewill, everyone must be brought to a point where they can use that freewill to choose or to reject Christ per the definition of prevenient grace or freewill isn't honored. Do you believe every person throughout time and humanity has been given the option to except or reject Christ and seeing how ultimately in most Arminianism beliefs there really isn't a cut off for that, do you believe that every person throughout time in humanity has been given the option to believe in Jesus Christ throughout their lives until they die? That means all the Chaldean's and the Palestinians and the Babylonians that where Israel's enemy were given the choice to follow Jesus Christ and they all rejected Him. When they should've been welcoming Israel they were persecuting Israel, Jesus Christ's chosen instrument. And even in Israel only a remnant will be saved because evidently not many of them had faith in Jesus Christ either.
Around minute 14 he says that the gospel is the power of God but the power doesn't come with the Gospel. So go back to Mark 4:20 The gospel which is necessary is planted in your prepared field which is also necessary; the preparation of your mind comes before the gospel if your mind is full of rocks and weeds it doesn't matter how much gospel you throw on it you're not gonna grow faith in Christ. He says the gospel does convict you but doesn't provide the faith; I'm saying if your ground isn't prepared it's not even going to convict you; you have to be able to receive the Word of God for it to do any good and God provides the increase of your faith, of your saving faith.
Freewheel says that the only reason we're not in the garden now is because Adam had freewill and made a mistake that cost countless people their souls. So if Adam would've rebuffed Satan, Christ would have never had to die on the cross.
Arminianism paints a rosy picture where Satan isn't even an issue because God is able to get to every person throughout time with something equivalent to the gospel so why even preach the gospel if God already does this?


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The guy is not an Arminian (he believes in eternal security) nor believes in prevenient grace.
There is no such thing as prevenient or irresistible grace.
Conviction is wrought in the heart of a man via God's provided tools like the witness of creation, conscience, and the preaching of the word.

Jesus Christ was not revealed to Old Testament peoples.
Their free will revolved around offering a sacrifice and obeying whatever revelations of God they had.

 

[Titus Tarnum]

The guy is not an Arminian (he believes in eternal security) nor believes in prevenient grace.
There is no such thing as prevenient or irresistible grace.
Conviction is wrought in the heart of a man via God's provided tools like the witness of creation, conscience, and the preaching of the word.

Jesus Christ was not revealed to Old Testament peoples.
Their free will revolved around offering a sacrifice and obeying whatever revelations of God they had.

Prevenient Grace is a definition of the operation of freewill that he came to; that God brings you to a point of choice and that you can't get there without his bringing you to that point. That everyone is supposed to have freewill to choose and if someone isn't given the option to choose, freewill isn't being honored. That somehow God reveals Jesus Christ to everyone since there is no other name under heaven by which to be saved. It is always been Christ our Savior even in the old covenant; the patriarchs, David, Moses all had faith in Christ, but faith in Christ wasn't offered to countless people because God wasn't able to get to them yet with a message of faith that's why there's a new covenant now and we are supposed to do the great commission to offer as many people as we can the gospel, Offering sacrifices Isn't sufficient to cleanse the soul, and if you believe that every person throughout humanity and time was offered salvation in Christ alone well then, that's your right. How about today; do you think people in Muslim nations have the same opportunity as you do follow Jesus Christ? If they do the numbers don't show it; there is definitely a disparity of faith in those nations.
Whether you want to look at that definition of prevenient grace or not is not important, I was just wondering if you followed Arminianism.

But what about the other points that I made; do you believe that someone else could've chose differently or Adam himself could've chose differently and we would still be in the Garden and no one would have suffered and Christ wouldn't of had to have given His life? Is free will that powerful in your opinion?
Do you believe like your guy does that God enables you to choose?

To clarify; the God that formed Adam was Jesus Christ, the God that spoke to Abraham was Jesus Christ the Angel in the burning bush was Jesus Christ. The rock smitten by Moses was Jesus Christ .The Captain of the Hosts at Jericho was Jesus Christ. David knew of Jesus Christ intimately. If you wanted to be saved in the Old Testament you still had to have faith in Jesus Christ and you had to become a Jew to be in the people of God, like Rahab did.

 

[Van]

If your faith isn't in God what is it in? You have to start with your faith being in something other than God.
The definition of inherent is "existing in something as permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.
Do you want me to show you a scripture that says man has faith built into him; I will as soon as you show me a scripture saying man has 10 fingers and 10 toes.

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Inherit human faith is a fiction found nowhere in scripture. We put our devotion and trust into information we receive. Humankind has the inherit ability to believe in someone or something.
If the idea is we must be committed to what be believe about Christ, then of course we must be committed, otherwise it would not be faith.

There is never a need to be vague.

 

[Brightfame52]

Except Hebrews 8:12 is discussing people under the New Covenant so it only applies to New Covenant believers please read the verses surrounding verse 12

Hebrews 8:11
None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


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False it applies to the whole World, of all time ! Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World Rev 13:8 !

 

[MB]

You didn't answer my question

You didn't ask me a question/
MB

 

[MB]

The Elect were Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph1:4

The Jews were but election is not for gentiles.
MB

 

[Brightfame52]

The Jews were but election is not for gentiles.
MB

False comment !

 

[MB]

False comment !

Show me just one scripture where it says Gentiles are elect.
MB

 

[Titus Tarnum]

My friend asked me what is my purpose of discussing these theological divisions and my answer is this;
ultimately freewill says that God gives everyone a choice and this weakens the need to spread the gospel. Election when presented incorrectly forces good Christians to reject it because it incorrectly says God only wants certain people so division in the Church is perpetuated and the Church is not as effective as it could be at getting the gospel to as many people as possible. If the godly people from both sides of this argument united in the common goal of spreading the gospel I think we could we used by God to make a difference. We should come together and discuss how to reach these other people and what are the best strategies we can use.
Does anyone know here why Muslims don't accept Jesus as Lord. I am ashamed to say I don't but I want to learn. I am thinking of reading the Quran, has anyone done that here? I give to an outreach for closed nations, does anyone here do that too? What do you think is the best way, or what ways have you found to reach closed people groups? Thank you for your input in advance!

 

[Yeshua1]

My friend asked me what is my purpose of discussing these theological divisions and my answer is this;
ultimately freewill says that God gives everyone a choice and this weakens the need to spread the gospel. Election when presented incorrectly forces good Christians to reject it because it incorrectly says God only wants certain people so division in the Church is perpetuated and the Church is not as effective as it could be at getting the gospel to as many people as possible. If the godly people from both sides of this argument united in the common goal of spreading the gospel I think we could we used by God make a difference. We should come together and discuss how to reach these other people and what are the best strategies we can use.
Does anyone know here why Muslims don't accept Jesus as Lord. I am ashamed to say I don't but I want to learn. I am thinking of reading the Quran, has anyone done that here? I give to an outreach for closed nations, does anyone here do that too? What do you think is the best way, or what ways have you found to reach closed people groups? Thank you for your input in advance!


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Islam teaches that the prior revelations from Allah, Judasim and Christianity, became corrupted, and that Allah sent Muhammed with final revelation to straighten it out, same lie that Satan would give to the likes od Russell, Smith, and White later on!

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Well you can take that up with God for ordaining me to be fearless rather than a groveling coward who allow their own mother thrown in hell for God's glory.

Some folk tend to shy away from calling themselves "CALVINISTs." The seemingly preffered disignation is: "An adherent believe in 'The Doctrines of Grace.'" The late A W Pink & John Gill, etc., seemed to fit that designation for such books as Pink;s The Soverenty (sp ?) of God," & Gill's The Cause of God and Truth. Also J. D. Cole's paperback "The Bible Doctrine of Election" I read Pink's book way back in 1968. In it, as well as many other works defending "The Doctrines of Grace," most author's of that ilk appear to insert in the "all" passages they appear to make a distinction between "ALL without EXCEPTION" & "ALL without DISTINCTION." Even in starting my 56th year in God's Family, I still don't know if either (or both) "Adds to" or "Takes away from" what the HS meant. As some one told me decades ago, "That's WHY it's gonna take God 1,000 years to 'Straighten us out!!" (He never did comment about God wiping away ALL our tears during those 10 decades though!!) IMHO, the Millennial Reign will STILL be a great time of rejoicing for those who've received Jesus as Savior!!! Besides "Old things ARE done away with....BEHOLD ALL (w/out exception) Things WILL BE MADE N E W!! Maybe old Jean Calivin & Jake Arminius will just kiss & make up then!! .....Yah Think??