Hebrews 9:27

[canadyjd]

Please do not make-up malarkey and post it as if it was my view. Use quotes.

Ok

I am pretty sure all Calvinists lean toward exhaustive determinism, God's knowledge of the future fixes the future and no other outcome is possible. However, that view is malarkey..

You stated the view that God’s knowledge of the future fixes that future and makes no other outcome possible…. is malarkey.

So, you believe just because God knows the future doesn’t mean that future can’t be changed.

If you believe a person can change the future already known by God, you deny the omniscience of God, making that person the master of his own destiny.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Hebrews 9:27 states: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


So - if a man does something stupid - could his life be shortened by his own actions.

If a person has been walking very close to the Lord - could his life be extended by the Lord?

I remembered this passage.

2 Kings 20:1-6 God heals Heziekiel gives him an extra 15 years of life.

So, did God change the future? Or did God, knowing all things, already know the date of his death would be 15 years later?

It is clear that God extended his life by 15 years, based on his plea to God that he had been faithful. Does that mean God changed what He knew to be the day of his death?

I don’t believe God changed what He already knew to be the time of his death, but it is interesting to think about.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

In the OT under Law, you could expect long life and prosperity for obedience. But expect and receive the worst for disobedience. The key is in understanding the elect who were born again would be obedient by nature having faith. And the reprobate would not be obedient by nature.

 

[AustinC]

Please respect the OP who simply removes off topic copy and paste smokescreed.

so...you "snip" but others are wrong to do so. Hypocrisy is an interesting thing...

 

[AustinC]

If Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to redeem by his blood, that is be slain, when was the appointment of death made?

Before the foundation of the world the Godhead knew man would rebel and they would redeem.

Ordaining the rebellion (giving an okay to the rebellion) is not authoring the rebellion.

 

[AustinC]

In the OT under Law, you could expect long life and prosperity for obedience. But expect and receive the worst for disobedience. The key is in understanding the elect who were born again would be obedient by nature having faith. And the reprobate would not be obedient by nature.

...except King Josiah who was entirely obedient yet died in battle at a young age...

 

[1689Dave]

...except King Josiah who was entirely obedient yet died in battle at a young age...

I said "one could expect" not that it was guaranteed.............

 

[robycop3]

We've all seen atheists live long lives (Bertrand Russell) & Christians die young(the student in Columbine HS)

 

[Van]

Ok
You stated the view that God’s knowledge of the future fixes that future and makes no other outcome possible…. is malarkey.
So, you believe just because God knows the future doesn’t mean that future can’t be changed.
If you believe a person can change the future already known by God, you deny the omniscience of God, making that person the master of his own destiny.
peace to you

Please do not make up views and attribute them to me. Use quotes. Did I say I deny God is all-knowing (omniscience)? Nope.
Did I say God can know contingent future outcomes? Nope

 

[Van]

so...you "snip" but others are wrong to do so. Hypocrisy is an interesting thing...

Note once again the Calvinist ignores the topic and simply disparages the poster.

 

[AustinC]

Note once again the Calvinist ignores the topic and simply disparages the poster.

Look at that...amazingly, no "snip."
It's funny how you call me "the Calvinist" as your crutch requires from you. How painful it will be for you when you meet so very many "calvinists" in heaven...

 

[Van]

Look at that...amazingly, no "snip."
It's funny how you call me "the Calvinist" as your crutch requires from you. How painful it will be for you when you meet so very many "calvinists" in heaven...

Off topic personal attacks are the stock and trade of Calvinists...

 

[AustinC]

Off topic personal attacks are the stock and trade of Calvinists...

Nope. Your history at the BB has been to personally attack others, then claim their response to you is a calvinist ploy attacking you as a victim. It's your escape clause so you don't have to confront God's word and change your self-centered view of God's grace.

 

[Van]

Nope. Your history at the BB has been to personally attack others, then claim their response to you is a calvinist ploy attacking you as a victim. It's your escape clause so you don't have to confront God's word and change your self-centered view of God's grace.

Material false statements without quotes are the stock and trade of Calvinism...

I am pretty sure all Calvinists lean toward exhaustive determinism, God's knowledge of the future fixes the future and no other outcome is possible. However, that view is malarkey.

What the verse seems to me to be saying is there are no second chances for salvation after we physically die. Judgment is swift and sure, and the lost are condemned already. John 3:18.

OTOH, God is the God of continuing chances as long as we live, therefore repent and believe.

 

[Van]

In a nutshell,

Calvinism teaches humanity was saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing we can do to alter that outcome for ourselves or our loved ones.

This utter corruption of the good news cannot stand the light of day...

 

[Iconoclast]

"Silverhair,

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5

Hello Silverhair,
Thank you for this fine, and important question.
I do not think we have interacted before, so I would like to offer an answer as well as ask you some clarifying questions that might advance the discussion.
In the OP. Salty asked a question that deals with the topic of God's immutability. God who is perfect and Holy in all His attributes has no need to change anything as that would suggest imperfection which is not possible.
To suggest an infinitely Holy God can be the author of sin is also flawed human philosophy, so we can dispense with that kind of defective thought right away;
12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Now, your questions;

If, as you say,

Millions of others before us have said this is the teaching of scripture, and I agree with their understanding of scripture....so yes, I say this is the truth of God.

[QUOTE]IF God has decreed, unchangeably everything that happens then how would He not be the author of sin?[/QUOTE]

This question starts with the idea that it is possible to blame God for man's sin, which is scripturally not possible. I believe it also has a wrong idea of God being Righteous and Just. It is the question asked by Paul's imaginary objector in Romans 9;
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

That is unless you think someone can override God's decrees.

???
How can that even be considered as a possibility?Isa46;


9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Just because some men in 1689 wrote the WCF does not make it true[/QUOTE]

Of course not. It is first and foremost what saith the scripture.; from the 1689lbc;
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation.
Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )

I would also caution from thinking of it as a hastily conceived document put together by "some men". These were highly educated and experienced men who spent many hours and prayerful study ti work through scripture.
To dismiss gifted teachers God has provided is not wise.

Do you think anything can take place outside of what God has ordained to come to pass???

 

[George Antonios]

Hebrews 9:27 states: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


So - if a man does something stupid - could his life be shortened by his own actions.

If a person has been walking very close to the Lord - could his life be extended by the Lord?

Although I'm not sure how that question arises from that verse, yet the principle whereof you enquired has scriptural backing indeed:

Ecc 7:17 Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?

Psa 55:23 But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.

Job 15:31 Let not him that is deceived trust in vanity: for vanity shall be his recompence.
Job 15:32 It shall be accomplished before his time, and his branch shall not be green.

Pro 10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.

Etc.

I'm surprised in all these posts those verses did not come up.

 

[Iconoclast]

Van,

Your view, if rational, would make God the author of sin, yet illogically you deny it.[/QUOTE]

Your lack of understanding of the clear teaching of millions of confessional Christians does not change the truth of the confessional and scripturally based statement. If you want to know the cause of any irrational statement a glance in the mirror will identify the culprit.

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

You deny the opportunity of salvation brought by the preaching of the gospel, so far from biblical truth to be its antithesis.

As you asked another poster,could you show a quote of me denying the free offer of the gospel? or is Austins charge concerning you SPOT ON?

Yet at every opportunity your group inflicts your bogus views upon this forum.

Answering your off-topic posts and accusations derails most threads, but it has become clear that you are content with your novelties and repeated error, like Dusty Springfield, you are just wishing and hopin, your novelties will find acceptance

 

[AustinC]

Material false statements without quotes are the stock and trade of Calvinism...

I am pretty sure all Calvinists lean toward exhaustive determinism, God's knowledge of the future fixes the future and no other outcome is possible. However, that view is malarkey.

What the verse seems to me to be saying is there are no second chances for salvation after we physically die. Judgment is swift and sure, and the lost are condemned already. John 3:18.

OTOH, God is the God of continuing chances as long as we live, therefore repent and believe.

This is a perfect example of man assisting God in salvation via the law. Grace not needed

 

[George Antonios]

...except King Josiah who was entirely obedient yet died in battle at a young age...

2Ch 35:21 But he sent ambassadors to him, saying, What have I to do with thee, thou king of Judah? I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith I have war: for God commanded me to make haste: forbear thee from meddling with God, who is with me, that he destroy thee not.
2Ch 35:22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.