HELL IS NOT LAKE OF FIRE

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by John Wells:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James Newman:
then I must question whether or not YOU truly have 'saving faith.'

You question my faith because I do not agree to your cultic interpretations, that by any stretch of the imagination is way off base of mainstream protestant theology? Since you danced around only one of my questions without answering it, I am through "casting pearls to swine" for it's a waste of time. You, John, Lacy et al have clearly demonstrated you are not interested in TRUTH which has slapped you in the face! You build your false teachings on a bunch of warnings to non-specified groups (saved vs. unsaved). You cannot produce (because it doesn't exist) scripture which clearly states that believers must pass through hell on the way to heaven.

I'll tell you what, your flight to heaven may include a layover in hell, but I am guaranteed by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, through the scriptures, a direct flight! </font>[/QUOTE]Matthew 13
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

 

[Lacy Evans]

6) Please reconcile the above passage with your beliefs. (this is a new one)

I'm afraid the newness of the thing is what is bothering you. It is not new. It has been thoroughly taught and defended by prominent Baptist and Brethren preachers and writers for years. (Robert Govett, DM Panton, GH Lang, GH Pember, SS Craig, Seiss, WF Roadhouse, etc.) I could give you a bigger list if the "newness" is what bothers you.

Note: All these men taught a conditional entrance into the Millenial Kingdom and the possibility of exclusion. Many more taught it as well but some differ as to the "location" of outer darkness.


I tried my best to answer your questions. I have faced all these questions, indeed they were my same objections when I was introduced to this truth. It is scary. We better be good. We better walk in the grace, in the power of the Holy spirit, in the gifts that we own. We had better no trample under foot the Blood that sanctified us. Don't-worry-be-happy days are over.

Lacy

 

[JohnBaskette]

DHK, OR WHOEVER I WHOEVER IS MAKING THEESE RIDICULAS posts, I say Ridiculas b/c what is obvious iTHE 1st POST

Just LOOK @ THE NAME OF THIS THREAD IF IT SLIPS YOUR MIND!

HELL IS NOT THE LAKE OF FIRE! If you'll apply that when reading the Bible IT MAKES EVERYTHING JIVE.
AND IF NOT, YOU'LL HAVE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS & MAY WANT A DIFFERENT BIBLE VERSION TO READ
&lt; JUST TRY & SEE HOW ALL THINGS COME TOGETHER...
In Christ; John
Originally posted by JohnBaskette:
Brother DHK,
No need to answer that foolish question YOU ARE OBVIOSLY A KINGDOM BELIEVER! PRAISE GOD!
In our Lord's name; John

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
1 John 2 is talking about someone who is not a believer; someone who continues in the habit of sin and does not repent. No believer keeps the commandments or walks perfectly with the Lord; we all sin but the HS convicts us to repent. If one does not feel conviction, does not repent and continues to live as though they are not a believer, then the evidence is they are not a believer.

So if constant obedience is mandatory for the Kingdom, then no one will get in!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Amen!!!!Marcia. This is the truth! and the scriptures speak plainly of this.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DHK]

I agree Hell is not the Lake of Fire. The Bible teaches that both Hell and the Lake of fire are eternal. There is no getting around that. Jesus himself taught that Hell was eternal.

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

There are many such references in the Bible.

Secondly the Bible teaches that the Judgement Seat of Christ is for believers, and is a completely separate event than the Great White Throne Judgement which is for unbeliever only, the two being separated by at least 1000 years.

Thirdly it is impossible for those believers, having being judged at the judgement seat of Christ according to their works, and having already been in Heaven with their glorified bodies should come down to earth with Christ, enter into the Millennial Kingdom with Him and then suffer punishment in a type of purgatory--Hell. That is an impossibility, a cutish heretical doctrine.
DHK

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
It says that under Moses' law, offenders died without mercy. Under the new covenant, it seems there is sorer punishment than physical death! What would that refer to, if we can only be chastened in this life?
--------------------------------------------------


Where do the scriptures tell us we will be chastised in our Spirit, or life to come? If our life to come is by and through Jesus Christ, and not of our own, how can God chastise us, without being found a liar? Your belief is not coming from understanding scriptural truth, but from misunderstanding it. Please, show me the scripture that we are chastised in our spirit now or after our flesh dies? How then can we (our spirit) go on to be with the Lord at our physical death? These are problems you encounter with your false doctrine, and to which show it to be FALSE. Our reward is not the millenial kingdom. Our reward is the righteousness of Christ and the glorified body he will give us - we already live in God kingdom in the Spirit. You see, we have no works of our own worthy enouph for our Lord to give to us. God has given to us to do those works, not of ourselves, strenght or power, but CHRISTS, and that is why we give it back. If one is not doing as the Lord leads, that reward cannot be given to him, in order to give it to the Lord, and IT is an impossiblity with someone who is saved and indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. Again, you need to come out of this false belief that the millenial kingdom is the blessed hope of the church. It is not. Our blessed hope, is the redemption of our bodies into the incorruptible, when Christ calls us home. This is what we long for. This is our hope, and this is what the Lord has promised us.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[av1611jim]

Michelle;
I may remind you that Paul clearly says that hope is something not realized.
Salvation is realized and garaunteed for every believer.
What is NOT realized is entrance into the Kingdom of Christ.
This my friend is the blessed hope.
I hope to gain an entrance into it even as Paul said he hoped for the same.
I do NOT need to hope for heaven, since that is promised to all believers.
What is NOT promised is reigning with Jesus in the Kingdom. It is always conditional.
You cannot show otherwise.
As Paul has said after listing a string of ungodly behaviors, "...they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom og God".

People, this is not so hard to grasp.
I suspect the reason so many rebel at the thought is because their flesh hates to be held accountable for its actions.
In His service;
Jim

 

[DHK]

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Adultery?
Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Murder?
Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Covetous (thoughts)?
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We are sinners, sinner saved by the graced of God. True, isn't it Jim?
If not, then have you committed murder--been angry at all with your brother (Christian brother)?
--Committed adultery--ever looked upon a woman in any lustful way?
--Have you at all times in your Christian life brought every single thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ? Then you put yourself into the same position of never entering into the Kingdom according to your own theology. Furthermore you deny the Scriptures, written to believers (notice the pronoun "we" which includes John):

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Does your theology make Christ a liar?
DHK

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
It is scary. We better be good. We better walk in the grace, in the power of the Holy spirit, in the gifts that we own. We had better no trample under foot the Blood that sanctified us. Don't-worry-be-happy days are over.

Lacy

Lacy,

Since you did take the time to address my questions/scriptures (THANK YOU!) I will respond, only to the above part. On the rest I'm afraid we're not getting anywhere, both having made up our minds (don't most people?) as to our correctness, and will have to agree to disagree.

I couldn't agree with you more on the part above I snipped out, but for slightly different reasons. I did not want to get side tracked on this subject earlier but will briefly address it now.

"Having been justified," "covered by His (Christ's) blood," "sins remembered no more" are true statements, which IMHO make it impossible for believers to experience punishment "for the temporary" in hell.

You also asked, "Do all Christians love his appearing?" inferring you believe not all do. I disagree. All "true" Christians love his appearing. Satan is the great deceiver, the author of lies, and much of the scriptures you "Kingdom Truth" folks throw out as proof texts of your beliefs, are spoken against false believers.

In every "Christian" circle (congregation/church) are deceived, false believers running around doing Christian-like good deeds, thinking they are saved. Our message today, as well as Jesus', Paul's, etc. in the NT are and should be full of warnings to "Christians" but aimed at false believers, because only God truly knows the heart of man. It's like, "here's a trustworthy warning! If the shoe fits, wear it!"

Although your arguments are noble in intent, you still have not made a good case to explain, based on God's attributes (righteous) and promises, how a redeemed, forgiven, saved, adopted child of God who has been imputed the righteousness of Christ (literally viewed upon by God AS CHRIST), can be sentenced by that same God, who has already said "your sins are forgiven," and to then be punished in hell. At the moment of my salvation, I was indwelt by the Holy Spirit (God living in me). My Savior promised to send me a Helper and that He would never leave me nor forsake me! Does a part of the nature of God (Holy Spirit) accompany me to hell (in your belief)?

It seems to me that you have waxed yourself into a corner here! If you say "the Holy Spirit doesn't go with the believer into hell," then you make Jesus a liar for saying he would never leave or forsake us. If you say "the Holy Spirit does go with you into hell," well, I hope the problem there is obvious!

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by DHK:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Adultery?
Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Murder?
Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Covetous (thoughts)?
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We are sinners, sinner saved by the graced of God. True, isn't it Jim?
If not, then have you committed murder--been angry at all with your brother (Christian brother)?
--Committed adultery--ever looked upon a woman in any lustful way?
--Have you at all times in your Christian life brought every single thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ? Then you put yourself into the same position of never entering into the Kingdom according to your own theology. Furthermore you deny the Scriptures, written to believers (notice the pronoun "we" which includes John):

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Does your theology make Christ a liar?
DHK

Rev 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Rev 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

He does indeed. But it doesn't make me any less a sinner.
Paul said:
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul said he was the chief of sinners. Notice the verb "I am," indicating the present tense. He did not say "I was," past tense. In his present condition, as a saved individual he was the chiefest of all sinners (the worst one).
DHK

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by John Wells:
You also asked, "Do all Christians love his appearing?" inferring you believe not all do. I disagree. All "true" Christians love his appearing. Satan is the great deceiver, the author of lies, and much of the scriptures you "Kingdom Truth" folks throw out as proof texts of your beliefs, are spoken against false believers.

In every "Christian" circle (congregation/church) are deceived, false believers running around doing Christian-like good deeds, thinking they are saved. Our message today, as well as Jesus', Paul's, etc. in the NT are and should be full of warnings to "Christians" but aimed at false believers, because only God truly knows the heart of man. It's like, "here's a trustworthy warning! If the shoe fits, wear it!"

I agree that there are people that are not saved in church. But can you show me just one time, in any scripture I mentioned,where these folks are addressed. Where does Christ say, "If you think you are saved, but you are not then you better have good works"? Why doen't he just tell them to believe on the finished work of Christ and get saved? Can you get saved by works if you are a false professer? What if I don't long for his coming? What if I just got a new job and I yield to the temptation of putting the second coming on the back-burner while I build my kingdom? What if I become a amillenialist and don't really expect a literal second coming? Does bad eschatology negate my salvation?

The whole "false professor" argument (I used it too

) is just too full of holes.

Does a part of the nature of God (Holy Spirit) accompany me to hell (in your belief)?

It seems to me that you have waxed yourself into a corner here! If you say "the Holy Spirit doesn't go with the believer into hell," then you make Jesus a liar for saying he would never leave or forsake us. If you say "the Holy Spirit does go with you into hell," well, I hope the problem there is obvious!

The Spirit of Christ would never leave a saved person. He never forsakes us, even in discipline. What harm would Hell do to Christ's Spirit? Do you think God is afraid of the center of the earth?

Ps 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8. If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
I don't say the "Holy Spirit goes with you, the Psalmist says it is already there.

In Christ, Lacy

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Michelle;
I may remind you that Paul clearly says that hope is something not realized.
Salvation is realized and garaunteed for every believer.
What is NOT realized is entrance into the Kingdom of Christ.
This my friend is the blessed hope.
I hope to gain an entrance into it even as Paul said he hoped for the same.
I do NOT need to hope for heaven, since that is promised to all believers.
What is NOT promised is reigning with Jesus in the Kingdom. It is always conditional.
You cannot show otherwise.
As Paul has said after listing a string of ungodly behaviors, "...they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom og God".

People, this is not so hard to grasp.
I suspect the reason so many rebel at the thought is because their flesh hates to be held accountable for its actions.
In His service;
Jim

Apparently, it's hard for you to grasp correctly!

Luke 14:14b . . . you will be paid at the resurrection of the righteous (elsewhere called the first resurrection)

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ (Kingdom!!!) and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rom 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

Rom 3:23-24 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Who will be paid at the first resurrection? Answer = the righteous

What will the righteous be paid? Answer = appointed priests and reign with Christ for a thousand years

Where will they be during the millennium? Answer = with Christ NOT HELL!

Who are the righteous? Answer = those who obey the law

Does this imply perfect obediance? Answer = No, "there is no one righteous" (Rom 3:10) and "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Rom 3:23) "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his (God's) sight by observing the law" (Rom 3:20). "For in the gospel a righteousness from God (imputed) is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.'" (Rom 1:17)

"Kingdom Truth"ers, you are dead wrong about believers going to hell, and your emphasis on obedience after salvation smacks of Romism! Yes, believers are to be passionate (like you are) about desiring to be obedient, but not to earn "kingdom rights," rather to be effective witnesses and show forth the light of the gospel, and in appreciation for the blessings and gift already bestowed on the believer, never to be taken back, "that where I am, there you will be also!"(John 14:3) Not, no never, in hell!

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James Newman:
Rev 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

He does indeed. But it doesn't make me any less a sinner.
Paul said:
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul said he was the chief of sinners. Notice the verb "I am," indicating the present tense. He did not say "I was," past tense. In his present condition, as a saved individual he was the chiefest of all sinners (the worst one).
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]What sin was Paul committing?

1Cor 10
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Is this scripture true?

 

[John Wells]

So James, are you inferring that you have mastered the "escape routes" from sin and are now without sin?

What sins? Why, sins of commission, omission . . . word, deed, and thought, like all of us!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by James Newman:
What sin was Paul committing?

1Cor 10
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Is this scripture true?

Paul committed sin every day, as we all do. To deny such is to call Jesus Christ a liar. It was Paul who said "Yea let God be true but every man a liar." (Rom.3:4) I believe he meant every man.
1Cor.10:13 only strengthens my position. Temptation to sin does take place, and so does sin itself. But here is a promise in the Word of God that we can have victory over sin. That doesn't mean that we always will. It doesn't say that. The flesh fails. We are not perfect. Paul failed many times.
After a terrible battle with the flesh described in Romans 7, where he admits to sin, and even says that it "is not I but sin that dwells in me,"
he cries out "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
The answer is found in the next verse:

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--It takes a great discipline of mind to constantly have victory over sin. Paul said with the mind I serve the law of God. But he also said with the flesh I serve the law of sin. Paul gave into the flesh at times. That was his struggle that he had just described in most of chapter 7. Plese don't tell me that you are sinless and perfect and never have a problem with your flesh, and never give into your flesh. You never have even one sinful thought. You never tell even one lie. If you are about to tell me that that is the case then I know that your life is a life of deception, and of being deceived. No man can live a sinless life. The only one that could do that was Jesus Christ. That is what qualified him to die for our sins.
He was the just for the unjust; the sinless for the sinner.
There is no such thing as sinless perfection. Paul said that he was the chief of sinners. Do you believe the Scriptures or not?
DHK

 

[JohnBaskette]

Originally posted by michelle:
--------------------------------------------------
Not all Christians will be “accounted worthy” to reign with Christ. Even The diciple Paul who our Lord inspired to write most of the NT. Prayed that he’d be accounted worthy b/c he explained that he had not yet attained”… Iif blessed Paul prayed to be accounted worthy shouldn’t we as we are to “follow Paul even as he followed Christ?”
--------------------------------------------------


Yes, and it is a good example of humbleness, but not a very good example that Paul ever believed he was going to hell.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[JohnBaskette]

Originally posted by michelle:
--------------------------------------------------
Not all Christians will be “accounted worthy” to reign with Christ. Even The diciple Paul who our Lord inspired to write most of the NT. Prayed that he’d be accounted worthy b/c he explained that he had not yet attained”… Iif blessed Paul prayed to be accounted worthy shouldn’t we as we are to “follow Paul even as he followed Christ?”
--------------------------------------------------


Yes, and it is a good example of humbleness, but not a very good example that Paul ever believed he was going to hell.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

I NEVER SAID THE APOSTE PAUL BELIEVED HE WAS GOING TO HELL. NEVER. Yes, he is a very good example of being humble. We are to follow him.
It is VERY ARROGANT TO BELIEVE YOU HAVE ATTAINED KINGDOM ENTRANCE. It is a prize we are to STRIVE FOR Fighting against sin & fleshly desires.

In Christ; John

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
Michelle;
I may remind you that Paul clearly says that hope is something not realized.
Salvation is realized and garaunteed for every believer.
What is NOT realized is entrance into the Kingdom of Christ
--------------------------------------------------

Actually what is not YET REALIZED and what we indeed HOPE FOR is our GLORIFIED BODIES. The kingdom of God is within us and not something to be hoped for, as we already are part of it.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Wells:
You also asked, "Do all Christians love his appearing?" inferring you believe not all do. I disagree. All "true" Christians love his appearing. Satan is the great deceiver, the author of lies, and much of the scriptures you "Kingdom Truth" folks throw out as proof texts of your beliefs, are spoken against false believers.

In every "Christian" circle (congregation/church) are deceived, false believers running around doing Christian-like good deeds, thinking they are saved. Our message today, as well as Jesus', Paul's, etc. in the NT are and should be full of warnings to "Christians" but aimed at false believers, because only God truly knows the heart of man. It's like, "here's a trustworthy warning! If the shoe fits, wear it!"

I agree that there are people that are not saved in church. But can you show me just one time, in any scripture I mentioned,where these folks are addressed. Where does Christ say, "If you think you are saved, but you are not then you better have good works"? Why doen't he just tell them to believe on the finished work of Christ and get saved? Can you get saved by works if you are a false professer? What if I don't long for his coming? What if I just got a new job and I yield to the temptation of putting the second coming on the back-burner while I build my kingdom? What if I become a amillenialist and don't really expect a literal second coming? Does bad eschatology negate my salvation?

The whole "false professor" argument (I used it too

) is just too full of holes.

Does a part of the nature of God (Holy Spirit) accompany me to hell (in your belief)?

It seems to me that you have waxed yourself into a corner here! If you say "the Holy Spirit doesn't go with the believer into hell," then you make Jesus a liar for saying he would never leave or forsake us. If you say "the Holy Spirit does go with you into hell," well, I hope the problem there is obvious!

The Spirit of Christ would never leave a saved person. He never forsakes us, even in discipline. What harm would Hell do to Christ's Spirit? Do you think God is afraid of the center of the earth?

Ps 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8. If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
I don't say the "Holy Spirit goes with you, the Psalmist says it is already there.

In Christ, Lacy </font>[/QUOTE]Brother John Wells,

I took much of the day (I type slow) answering your questions. I look forward to your rebuttal(s).

Bro. Lacy