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Hell Is Not the Lake of Fire
- Thread starter Hark
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Hark
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing but c0ntentions can be had for one point at that site. They try to say that sheol cannot be referring to the grave but yet scripture has sinners & the righteous going to sheol. Since the righteous are not in hell but in Abraham's bosom, aka Paradise, then I believe in some instance.. sheol is the grave.
Job 14:2 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. KJV
It cannot be Hades here. God would not hide the righteous in Hades.
The word has to be defined by how it is used in the verse & not every scholar, Berean, or Strong's concordance are on top of their game. This is why we are to prove everything by Him & not just take that at face value.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
I found from my studies on Gehenna in the NT, that in the majority of times that it is used, it includes believers. Does this mean when "fire" or "punishment" is associated with it in this context, that it is not in the literal sense?
Matthew 5:22, 29, 30
"But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca !' shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna... If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna. If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna"
Addressed to "His Disciples... He opened his mouth and taught them, saying..." (verses 1-2). Also, "You are the salt of the earth" (v.13), and, "You are the light of the world" (v.14), "Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven" (v.16), "But I tell you" (v.22). All of which can only have been spoken to those who are "saved", and not to the "unsaved" world.
Matthew 10:28
"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna"
In verse 1 we read, "He called to Himself His Twelve Disciples". In verse 5, "Jesus sent these Twelve out, and charged them, saying". In verse 16, "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves". And verse 20, "For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you". Verse 22, "You will be hated by all men for My Name's sake". None of this can have been spoken to those who are not "believers".
Matthew 18:9
"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire".
Same language used in Matthew chapter 5, which is clearly addressed to "believers" only. Verse 1 of chapter 18 also shows that these words of Jesus are addressed to His Disciples. "In that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven" In verse 8 Jesus uses the term, "eternal fire", which is connected to verse 9.
Matthew 23:15, 33
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much of a son of Gehenna as yourselves... You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?"
In these two verses "Gehenna" is used for those who are not "believers".
Mark 9:43, 45, 47
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire... If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched... If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire"
Like Matthew 5 and 18, the words are addressed to "believers", and not to the "unsaved" world. Mark 9:35 says, "He sat down, and called the Twelve; and He said to them". Verse 50 also is addressed to "the Twelve"; "Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another"
Luke 12:5
"But I will warn you whom you should fear. Fear him, who after he has killed, has power to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him". In verse 1 we read, "He began to tell His Disciples"
Same as Matthew 10:28, which is clearly spoken to Jesus' Disciples.
James 3:6
"And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna"
"Gehenna" is here used with reference to its "fire". The context clearly is "metaphorical", and not "literal", as it is us
Matthew 5:22, 29, 30
"But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca !' shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna... If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna. If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna"
Addressed to "His Disciples... He opened his mouth and taught them, saying..." (verses 1-2). Also, "You are the salt of the earth" (v.13), and, "You are the light of the world" (v.14), "Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven" (v.16), "But I tell you" (v.22). All of which can only have been spoken to those who are "saved", and not to the "unsaved" world.
Matthew 10:28
"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna"
In verse 1 we read, "He called to Himself His Twelve Disciples". In verse 5, "Jesus sent these Twelve out, and charged them, saying". In verse 16, "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves". And verse 20, "For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you". Verse 22, "You will be hated by all men for My Name's sake". None of this can have been spoken to those who are not "believers".
Matthew 18:9
"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire".
Same language used in Matthew chapter 5, which is clearly addressed to "believers" only. Verse 1 of chapter 18 also shows that these words of Jesus are addressed to His Disciples. "In that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven" In verse 8 Jesus uses the term, "eternal fire", which is connected to verse 9.
Matthew 23:15, 33
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much of a son of Gehenna as yourselves... You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?"
In these two verses "Gehenna" is used for those who are not "believers".
Mark 9:43, 45, 47
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire... If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched... If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire"
Like Matthew 5 and 18, the words are addressed to "believers", and not to the "unsaved" world. Mark 9:35 says, "He sat down, and called the Twelve; and He said to them". Verse 50 also is addressed to "the Twelve"; "Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another"
Luke 12:5
"But I will warn you whom you should fear. Fear him, who after he has killed, has power to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him". In verse 1 we read, "He began to tell His Disciples"
Same as Matthew 10:28, which is clearly spoken to Jesus' Disciples.
James 3:6
"And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna"
"Gehenna" is here used with reference to its "fire". The context clearly is "metaphorical", and not "literal", as it is us
NO save person will enter Hell, nor lake of fire!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Did I say otherwise? The verses are there, how would you deal with them
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Also, interesting that in the account in Luke of the Rich Man and Lazarus, "γέεννα" is not used, but "ᾍδης" is. Likewise, In Revelation 20:14, when it speaks of the second death, "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire", again, it is "ᾍδης".
No one knows what a poster means when the poster uses "Hell" just like we do not know what scripture means when it is translated as "Hell" because Hades and Gehenna are two very different places. And Tartaroo is a third.
Hark
Well-Known Member
I remind everyone that the Greek word, any Greek word, is defined by how it is used in the verse. It can be on earth when that future fiery judgment comes, the literal hell, or the grave or etc.
"But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca !' shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna... If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna. If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna"
Addressed to "His Disciples... He opened his mouth and taught them, saying..." (verses 1-2). Also, "You are the salt of the earth" (v.13), and, "You are the light of the world" (v.14), "Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven" (v.16), "But I tell you" (v.22). All of which can only have been spoken to those who are "saved", and not to the "unsaved" world.[/QUOTE]
I discern with Him that to mean being left behind at the rapture when God's fiery judgment comes on the earth. Jesus warned His disciples here in Luke 12:40-49 for not being found abiding in Him. Paul warned this about defiling the temple of God in having their bodies destroyed but their spirits are saved in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17. Jesus warned the church at Thyatira of the consequence of being cast into the bed of the great tribulation in Revelation 2:18-25. Compare that salt reference to the warning about loving this world more than Him that they would not want to leave in Luke 14:15-35 * see verses 34-35
So by use of the truth in other scripture, we can see the reference you are using as talking about not being ready when the Bridegroom comes as they can be cut off to have their portions with unbelievers per Luke 12:40-49 again.
"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna"
In verse 1 we read, "He called to Himself His Twelve Disciples". In verse 5, "Jesus sent these Twelve out, and charged them, saying". In verse 16, "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves". And verse 20, "For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you". Verse 22, "You will be hated by all men for My Name's sake". None of this can have been spoken to those who are not "believers".
Some saved believers deny Him to save their lives in India as of late when they were threatened with death to deny Him & to convert to their national religion, Hinduism. If they do not repent by the time the Bridegroom comes, they are at risk of being left behind to die during the fiery calamity coming on the earth or by starvation or murder during the great tribulation, but He still abides in them even after denying them entrance to the Marriage Supper above as warned in 2 Timothy 2:11-13 as their spirits will be with the Lord per 1 Corinthians 3:10-27 awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation; Revelation 20:4-6.
Still applies to believers being ready or face the fire coming on the earth per Luke 12:40-49 & 2 Peter 3:4-15 as that salvation is referring to being ready to be saved from what is coming on the earth.
Seeing how they are not cast into this judgment but receiving the fiery judgment coming on the earth, I would discern that with Him.
Again compare that salt reference to Luke 14:15-35 noting the last 2 verses about salt in verses 34-35 as it is about being ready to leave when the Bridegroom comes. That is the real cost of dscipleship for why we are to pray to be free of any snare to be worthy to escape to stand before the Son of Man in Heaven as He is able to make us stand when we hope in Him in Luke 21:34-36.
Again the warning to be ready r be cast as in left behind when that fire comes on the earth as compared with Luke 12:40-49
Right. Metaphorical for why we are define the term with Him as it is used in the verse. James 1:5
I thank the Lord for you because those verses referring to believers is why those who believe they are in the process of being saved or that they can lose their salvation do not discern with Him what that kind of "hell" is which unknowingly is on earth, but when comparing with other scripture, the warning to His disciples is clear that it is referring to "hell on Earth" for when that fiery judgment on believers for not being ready with the unbelievers that are not saved.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Correct, which is why we have the Lord to ask for wisdom from per James 1:5 & the Holy Spirit to remind us His words ( John 14:26 ) & to teach us His words ( 1 John 2:27-28 ) Hell can be defined by how it is used in the verse & one can know they are rightly dividing the word of truth by discerning if other scripture is not opposing or contrary to how they are applying His words.
But when it comes to people, they have to inform us how they are using His words.
To accept mistranslations that obscure true is unsound. No one would know whether Hades or Gehenna is in view, if all they knew was Hell.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Hades according to scripture is where the soul/spirit of the lost go when they physically die. This is a place of torment (Luke 16:23) and they remain there until they are brought to the Great White Throne Judgement, Revelation 20:14-15.
After Judgement, the lost are thrown into the Lake of Fire, which I believe is located in Gehenna, thus the place of eternal punishment.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
By not reading into any of them as referring to a saved person!
I discern with Him that to mean being left behind at the rapture when God's fiery judgment comes on the earth. Jesus warned His disciples here in Luke 12:40-49 for not being found abiding in Him. Paul warned this about defiling the temple of God in having their bodies destroyed but their spirits are saved in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17. Jesus warned the church at Thyatira of the consequence of being cast into the bed of the great tribulation in Revelation 2:18-25. Compare that salt reference to the warning about loving this world more than Him that they would not want to leave in Luke 14:15-35 * see verses 34-35
So by use of the truth in other scripture, we can see the reference you are using as talking about not being ready when the Bridegroom comes as they can be cut off to have their portions with unbelievers per Luke 12:40-49 again.
"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna"
In verse 1 we read, "He called to Himself His Twelve Disciples". In verse 5, "Jesus sent these Twelve out, and charged them, saying". In verse 16, "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves". And verse 20, "For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you". Verse 22, "You will be hated by all men for My Name's sake". None of this can have been spoken to those who are not "believers".
Some saved believers deny Him to save their lives in India as of late when they were threatened with death to deny Him & to convert to their national religion, Hinduism. If they do not repent by the time the Bridegroom comes, they are at risk of being left behind to die during the fiery calamity coming on the earth or by starvation or murder during the great tribulation, but He still abides in them even after denying them entrance to the Marriage Supper above as warned in 2 Timothy 2:11-13 as their spirits will be with the Lord per 1 Corinthians 3:10-27 awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation; Revelation 20:4-6.
Still applies to believers being ready or face the fire coming on the earth per Luke 12:40-49 & 2 Peter 3:4-15 as that salvation is referring to being ready to be saved from what is coming on the earth.
Seeing how they are not cast into this judgment but receiving the fiery judgment coming on the earth, I would discern that with Him.
Again compare that salt reference to Luke 14:15-35 noting the last 2 verses about salt in verses 34-35 as it is about being ready to leave when the Bridegroom comes. That is the real cost of dscipleship for why we are to pray to be free of any snare to be worthy to escape to stand before the Son of Man in Heaven as He is able to make us stand when we hope in Him in Luke 21:34-36.
Again the warning to be ready r be cast as in left behind when that fire comes on the earth as compared with Luke 12:40-49
Right. Metaphorical for why we are define the term with Him as it is used in the verse. James 1:5
I thank the Lord for you because those verses referring to believers is why those who believe they are in the process of being saved or that they can lose their salvation do not discern with Him what that kind of "hell" is which unknowingly is on earth, but when comparing with other scripture, the warning to His disciples is clear that it is referring to "hell on Earth" for when that fiery judgment on believers for not being ready with the unbelievers that are not saved.[/QUOTE]
NO saved person shall be left behind and miss the second coming!
For the lake of Fire, or for it being Gehenna?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
again you completely miss what I am saying! My point is, that as Gehenna is used by Jesus for believers, then the term itself must be used "figuratively", and not "literally", as no believer will ever go into "eternal punishment"
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
the latter
Hark
Well-Known Member
Same can be applied to Gehenna since there are different applications/definitions for how it is used in the verse.
Look at the Greek word for pneuma; there are other usage & definitions for pneuma besides the Person of the Holy Spirit; like the devil; man's spirit; vital principle, mental mindset so we cannot say they will all apply to the Holy Spirit. It is how it is used in the verse & context of the message that defines its usage & meaning for why we need His wisdom in understanding His words but the Good News is, He wants to help us understand His words of those who love Him & seek His face in being His disciples.
Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? KJV
Right, since you ignore the evidence I provided... If hell is replaced with either Hades or Gehenna, per the Greek, then clarity results.
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