Here's Something That Will Make You Think!!

[Mel Miller]

Will Make You Think

Marcia and Brother Bob,

For most I think it is and then there are people like me that read the other side of the coin which "those taken" were the ones taken by the flood in their sins.

For thirty years I looked at it as you suggested Marcia until one day I was reading the Scripture again for who knows how many times and saw where those taken were taken by the flood and also the part that stuck with me was they were taken unawares.

______________________________________________________________
Thank you, Bob!

It took 50 of the 60 years that I lived during the 20th Century as an adult before Pre-Trib advocates finally realized the wicked were "taken away in judgment"! They realized that Luke (not Matthew) states directly that "they were taken away by being destroyed"!!

I don't know why it took them so long to recognize the truth that what comes "suddenly" applies only to UNBELIEVERS who are all "destroyed"!!!

I think Pre-Tribbers also are finally beginning to realize the "ones taken
and ones left" have nothing to do with Believers being taken or left! They have no Scripture to support their OLD theory that only Believers will be "left" to populate the Kingdom!! Those who "mourn and beg to escape God's wrath" are the ones KEPT ALIVE and therefore LEFT to populate the Kingodom just as Noah and family were LEFT to re-populate the earth!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[skypair]

Mel,

Ot goes without saying that He must take us up before we come down with Him. The problem is the "timing?" When, for instance, is the Bema judgement in your timing, 1Cor 3? How do you treat the tribulation as dealing with "Daniel's people" when you actually have the church being dealt with and dealing our their gospel as well? Do the Jews come to receive Christ as a result of temple worship or on account of how nicely they are being treated by the church?

Well, I can't find your post in this format so I gotta. post this and go look again,

skypair

 

[skypair]

Mel.

I also "do not see Luke 21:34-36 as referring to the end-of-trib saints"!
But you falsely assume they "beg to escape the trib snares of the AC"!
They BEG to ESCAPE God's wrath on the only DAY that none can escape unless they are "willing to die" and not just to qualify for paradise as suicide bombers. Luke 17:30-33. This occurs ON THE DAY Christ appears!

I could allow that if that was what scripture says -- but it doesn't. It says "pray that you might be judged worthy to escape all those things that are coming upon the earth." I don't see "begging," I don't see how 36 goes beyong 35 in explaining what "those things" are. I'm sure you got some of this from other people's confusion regarding those words but that's all "passe" now.

THREE:
You claim I am "passing off the resurrection of the just for the rapture ... which it aint"! Why do you constantly ignore the Word of the Lord that "He will raise up all believers on the last day because it is His Father's will to raise up every believer on the last day"? Jesus stated this four times! Jno.6:38-40,44,54. Are you deliberately denying the holy word of Jesus??

Does it at all slow you down that all those verses are in John 6?? Maybe He's talking about something else. Maybe that "last day" is as 1000 years in the which all WILL have been judged! Find somemore "fodder," then tell me what it means.

FOUR:
I agree that the "begging to escape" in Luke 21:36 directly "refers only to Luke 21:35" because it occurs ON THE SAME DAY CHRIST IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN IN FLAMING FIRE TO TAKE VENGEANCE ON ALL WHO REJECT THE GOSPEL. It also refers to "all THINGS that happens (plural subject with singular verb) from the moment they see the signs in the sun, moon and stars ON THAT SAME DAY!! Luke 21:25-34.]

21:35 is NOT Christ's return. Christ is coming with "snares?" Think about it again.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Will Make You Think

Mel,

It goes without saying that He must take us up before we come down with Him. The problem is the "timing?" When, for instance, is the Bema judgement in your timing, 1Cor 3? How do you treat the tribulation as dealing with "Daniel's people" when you actually have the church being dealt with and dealing our their gospel as well? Do the Jews come to receive Christ as a result of temple worship or on account of how nicely they are being treated by the church?

Well, I can't find your post in this format so I gotta post this and go look again,

skypair

____________________________________________________________
There is no "problem of timing"! That's the error of Pre-Trib Doctrine!! Jesus was clear that the Bema occurs after the LAST MARTYR has been
killed who must be killed; because "He brings His rewards WITH Him for
every believer". Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12. Trib-Martyrs receive the highest possible reward offered to the Church after the HOUR of Trial has ended. Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-6.

Please stop confusing people!!!
Just stick with what you acknowledge at the start of this post, i.e., that "Jesus comes WITH all Believers by first coming FOR all Believers"!!!!

You are slick in trying to avoid the issue by introducing three questions that have nothing to do with the subject you introduced by a video dramatization of "Who are the ones `taken and who are left'"?

The "one taken and one left", as Jesus clearly presents, refers to all the
UNBELIEVERS who must make a final choice of whether to "pray to escape all these things ON THE DAY HE IS REVEALED ... OR be slain by the wrath
of God coming on all who obey not the Gospel ON THE DAY He rescues the entire remnant of Jews and delivers those who have endured tribulation"! Joel 2:32; 2 Thess.1:7-10. All those who "endure/survive to the END" know they will be saved from physical death. Matt.24:14; Rev.2:25-27.
Once the last martyrs have been killed, no more Believers can be killed!!!

Believers do not need to be urged to "pray to escape" the wrath to which God says "no Believer has been appointed"! Rom.5:9; I Thess.5:9.
Why not begin to apply the Scripture to ALL Believers for a change???
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Will Make You Think

skypair remarks:

Quote:
_______________________________________________________________
It says "pray that you might be judged worthy to escape all those things that are coming upon the earth." I don't see "begging," I don't see how vs.36 goes beyong 35 in explaining what "those things" are. I'm sure you got some of this from other people's confusion regarding those words but that's all "passe" now.
_______________________________________________________________

Those who "pray to escape" will not do so based on whether or nor they are "worthy"! The condition requires them to admit they deserve death and so must be "willing to die"!! Only then may they be "kept alive".
Luke 17:30-33. They must "prevail in prayer (meaning of word translated worthy is "prevail"; katischuo; #2729) in order to stand before Christ. No Believer needs to "pray to stand before Christ"!!!

Unbelievers need to "prevail"; Believers need to be "worthy". 2 Thess.1: 5,11 where Paul twice uses #515, axiow, to be entitled to or to be worthy of our calling and blameless" as he prayed for all the Saints in I Thes.3:13.

The ordinary word for "pray" is #4336, to worship. The word in Luke 21:36 is #1189, deomai, to beseech or beg, because the only chance to escape
God's wrath occurs during the HOUR of Trial "coming on all mankind on all the face of all the earth ON THE DAY He is revealed"! Luke 21:34-35; Rev.3:10; Luke 17:27-30. Jesus pinpoints the "HOUR of Trial" taking place when "they see Him appear in great glory and power". Luke 21:27-34.

The HOUR of Trial, therefore, is limited to the DAY Christ appears.

That should give you second thoughts about making the careless remark: "I don't see how vs.36 goes beyong 35 in explaining what `those things' are. I'm sure you got some of this from other people's confusion regarding those words but that's all `passe' now`".

Why should you think the Word of the Lord is "passe"?

Why, my friend, don't you take His Word seriously that "men's hearts will fail" ON THE DAY He is revealed and they will either perish or be prostrating themselves, "begging for mercy"? Ask yourself why you can't see the ones LEFT behind "begging and prevailing to stand before the Son of Man" and the wicked rotting while standing still ... until their knees buckle involuntarily and they are "taken away; consumed by billions of birds at the great supper of God Almighty"! Rev.19:17-21.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Will Make Your Think

skypair

My Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
You (skypair) claim I (Mel) am "passing off the resurrection of the just for the rapture ... which (as you claim) it aint"! Why do you constantly ignore the Word of the Lord that "He will raise up all believers on the last day because it is His Father's will to raise up every believer on the last day"? Jesus stated this 4 times! Jno.6:38-40,44,54. Are you deliberately denying the holy word of Jesus??

skypair's response:
"Does it at all slow you down that all those verses are in John 6?? Maybe He's talking about something else. Maybe that "last day" is as 1000 years in the which all WILL have been judged! Find somemore "fodder," then tell me what it means.
_____________________________________________________________
My response:
If these verses were in Matthew, you could follow the Pre-Trib "line" that Jesus was talking about the Jews. My view is that Jesus DOES talk about the Jews, but only in the account given by Luke 21:28-36 where, on that LAST DAY, only UNCONVINCED Jews up to that DAY and HOUR will "stand erect, look up and know their redemption and kingdom are near"! Ministry and Preaching by the Two Prophets will have prepared them for the DAY of the Lord as predicted over and over and over by their Prophets.

You claim "The Resurrection of the Just and the Rapture" do NOT occur at once; but according to Rev.11:18 they both occur at the 7th Trumpet where God's Wrath is announced from heaven, for the only time, as "having come". It's the "appointed (kairos) time for judging the dead (requiring the resurrection), rewarding the saints and prophets and all who fear God, both small and great (requiring the rapture) and destroying the destroyers of earth" (requiring retribution upon the unjust)!

You obviously think my coined word LASTDAY is "FODDER" for equating it with 1000 years. Are you trying to surreptitiously divert the issue and imply Jesus actually meant He will raise up "every/all believers" over a period of 1000 years instead of on the DAY He appears? I'm surprised you didn't include EE's "fodder" that the word "day" also means "seven years"!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :laugh:

 

[Mel Miller]

Will Make You Think

skypair,

My Quote:
FOUR:
I agree that the "begging to escape" in Luke 21:36 directly "refers only to Luke 21:35" because it occurs ON THE SAME DAY CHRIST IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN IN FLAMING FIRE TO TAKE VENGEANCE ON ALL WHO REJECT THE GOSPEL. It also refers to "all THINGS that happens (plural subject with singular verb) from the moment they see the signs
in the sun, moon and stars ON THAT SAME DAY!! Luke 21:25-34.]

Your response:
"21:35 is NOT Christ's return. Christ is coming with "snares?" Think about it again".
______________________________________________________________

OK, lets's think again. Luke 21:27 IS Christ's return and verses 28-31 reveal the response by those who are LEFT BEHIND. For it is clear, from Matt.24:30, that those who "mourn" continue to do so after they see the Son of Man appear!

It is clear from Luke 17:27-33 that, ON THE DAY CHRIST IS REVEALED, there is precious little time to decide if one will perish or be "kept alive"!

What is the initial reaction? When men see the signs of that DAY, their hearts fail from fear ... not just at signs in the heavens; but with the seas and surfs roaring from the giant tsunamis just before the HOUR of Trial begins. Luke 21:25. There will be "distress and perplexity among the nations at the sound of the waves" even before the HOUR for the Son of Man to appear!

What is the continuing reaction? The Jews who "stand erect at the beginning of these signs will begin to mourn when they see Christ appear and they will "know their redemption is near"! Luke 21:28. When they see the Son of Man appear, they will keep "begging to prevail so as to stand before Him because they know their kingdom is near". Luke 21:31.

All this goes through the minds of Israelis AFTER the Resurrection and Rapture has occurred; for Jesus "raises up every believer and gathers us from earth to heaven and sends the angels to complete the gathering out of the 4 winds from all the extremities of the heavenS"! This occurs before the HOUR of Trial that comes on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth" ... the same HOUR that comes unexpectedly for all who reject Christ. All believers, because of the third sounding of the Last Trump, will be exempt from that Hour and through that Hour those who "mourn and beg to escape will be kept alive"! Rev.3:10; Luke 21:34-35; Luke 17:33; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31. Jesus confirms that which is coming "on all the world to test every person" applies strictly to the Hour He appears!!!

So, my friend, Luke 21:35 is indeed the Hour Christ appears. It is "that day that comes unexpectedly, as a snare"! It is not just Christ alone who
comes "with snares", as you assume, but "all these things that are about to happenS ON THAT DAY"!! That's the reason for a Plural Subject (all these things) being used with a Singular Verb (HAPPENS)!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[skypair]

Mel,

Jesus was clear that the Bema occurs after the LAST MARTYR has been
killed who must be killed; because "He brings His rewards WITH Him for
every believer". Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12. Trib-Martyrs receive the highest possible reward offered to the Church after the HOUR of Trial has ended. Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-6.

Mt 16:27 - " For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." First, where does it say that the church saints are gathered by angels?? You have yet to demonstrate that Jesus said we were waiting for angels and not for Him. It is equally clear that He comes again with His angels gathering both tares and wheat postrib.

Rev 22:7, 12 - "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." It is patently obvious that when Jesus comes to the earth again, yes, He will reward those in Mt 16:27, Rev 22:7, 15, Rev 11:18, Rev 20:4. Good on ya, mate! Ya figured that one out!

But let's talk about the CHURCH for a minute! Rev 3:10 - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Luke 21:36
- "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." There's just no getting around that the "snares," the "things coming upon the whole earth" and the "temptation" are all the tribulation.

Trib-Martyrs receive the highest possible reward offered to the Church after the HOUR of Trial has ended. Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-6.

That's very magnanimous of YOU to award the trib martyrs OUR crowns and OUR pillars! Problem for you is that NJ ain't comin' to earth for 1000 years after the judgment. Is that how long we will wait for our reward in NJ? To have the name of it and of our God written on our forehead?

Mel, I realize this all may confuse you and your website that you are deeply committed to. Wouldn't it be a travesty if you were wrong all this time! For instance...

I'm looking at Luke 17:30-33 but I'm not seeing your "begging" or "praying" even. And Luke 21:36 says "pray ALWAYS," not just in the last hour, right? Nor am I seeing that words "worthy to prevail." My Bible says "escape" but that's in Luke 21:36.

Jesus pinpoints the "HOUR of Trial" taking place when "they see Him appear in great glory and power". Luke 21:27-34.

Again, I'm not finding your wording "hour" here - not in the entire passage you cite! How can Jesus "pinpoint" an "hour" that He calls -- at best -- a "day," (21:34)??

That should give you second thoughts about making the careless remark: "I don't see how vs.36 goes beyong 35 in explaining what ..."

I did have 2nd thoughts about this comment. I thought 21:36 could either 1) refer to 21:35 alone OR 2) to Luke 21:11-35, the entire tribulation/'all these things." But there is NO way to see "all these things" referring ONLY to Christ's return to Armageddon. How can you make 21:36 not refer to the snares," not refer to the other events Jesus recounts in Luke 21:11-35, and say that Jesus is isolating the events of His return in this particular verse? What's you justification besides that it fits your personal eschatology??

Rev 11:18 -- you can only apply what you see. Since you refuse to see a pretrib rapture, you also refuse to distinguish between these OT and trib saints at the 2nd coming here in Rev 11:18 and the church saints/wise virgins at the rapture pretrib. It is typical of "entry level" students of eschatology that they fail to account for dispensations, particularly as regards the old covenant vs. new. It is typical that they either don't see Daniel's 70th week or they dismiss it as concurrent with the church era. There's a good book I can recommend for you that may help you see your error. It is titled, The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy edited by LaHaye/Hindson. You've gone about as far as you can on your own, IMO. It wouldn't hurt for you to expand your knowledge.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

This Will Make You Think

skypair:
________________________________________________________________________
Mel’s Quote:
Jesus was clear that the Bema occurs after the LAST MARTYR has been
killed who must be killed; because "He brings His rewards WITH Him for
every believer". Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12. Trib-Martyrs receive the highest possible reward offered to the Church after the HOUR of Trial has ended. Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-6.

Your response:
“First, where does it say that church saints are gathered by angels?? You have yet to demonstrate that Jesus said we were waiting for angels and not for Him. It is equally clear that He comes with His angels gathering both tares and wheat postrib.

Rev 22:7, 12 - "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." It is patently obvious that when Jesus comes to the earth again, yes, He will reward those in Mt 16:27, Rev 22:7, 15, Rev 11:18, Rev 20:4. Good on ya, mate! Ya figured that one out!


Mel's Response:
How do you agree with me so easily as to what occurs when Jesus comes with His Angels to reward every Believer?! That means you must actually admit He sends the angels to gather Trib-Saints "from all the extremities of the heavenS”!! That means countless places of initiation in the process of Angels "gathering all the dead and living unto Christ"!!!

Only Jesus reveals the Angels do the gathering after “God brings the souls of the dead in Christ (including Trib-Martyrs) WITH Jesus from the third heaven”! See I Thess.4:13-14. In gathering these Elect out of the “heavenS”, Angels take over at countless points below the 3rd heaven where the 4 winds reach to the atmospheric space that is globally visible above the earth … in space that includes the “clouds”. This is true though neither Jesus nor Paul directly tells us!! Jesus, in Mark 13:27, allows no other explanation. For “every eye will see Jesus and those coming with Him on the clouds of great power and glory”!!! They continue to "mourn and beg to escape" AFTER Angels complete our gathering to Jesus. Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7.

You agree Trib-Saints are “gathered by angels” from millions of places for taking Believers out of the 4 winds”! You must also agree that Jesus first “gathers these Elect from earth to all points in heaven out these same 4 winds”!! Angels have neither the knowledge nor the capacity to "raise up the dead in Christ"!!!

Jesus states that He sends the angels (apostelei; 3rd person singular) and He gathers the Elect (episunaxei; 3rd person singular) together above and out of the 4 winds”! Mark 13:27. He sends the Angels (episunaxousin; 3rd person plural) to complete the “gathering from countless extremities of the heavenS unto Jesus”!!
Matt.24:31. He reveals the Angels assume their task AFTER men “see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven in great power and glory”!!! Matt.24:30.

OH, your question: “How does it say the church saints are gathered by angels”?? You only need me to remind you that all Saints must wait for their reward until the Angels finish “gathering us unto Jesus at the Synagogue” in the Sky!! 2 Thess.2:1.
When Paul used this NOUN for the "gathering place unto Jesus", he allows for
the Lamb's wedding at the MEETING PLACE ABOVE while those "blessed by being invited to the wedding supper" must wait until He brings us to the earth!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

This Will Make You Think

skypair,
Quote:

But let's talk about the CHURCH for a minute! Rev 3:10 - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Luke 21:36
- "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." There's just no getting around that the "snares," the "things coming upon the whole earth" and the "temptation" are all the tribulation.
___________________________________________________________________
Mel's Response:

Jesus pinpoints the exact time for His "DAY and HOUR coming unexpectedly, as a snare, upon all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth” (using the very same words given in Rev.3:10) by confirming (since He is the author of both texts) that "the HOUR of testing will occur when men’s hearts faint from fear at the raging of the winds against seas and surfs on the DAY Christ appears". It takes a few hours for tsunamis to strike after the signs of that DAY occur, while 100 verses in Revelation are being fulfilled, but the HOUR of Testing occurs on the Day that all men see Him and millions mourn after Christ appears! Luke 21:25-35.

God exempts ALL who “keep His word to endure (patient under tribulation) by keeping them from this testing coming on all the earth ON THAT DAY” or by “keeping alive all who mourn and beg to escape" knowing they deserve to die; but also suddenly "knowing their redemption and kingdom are near". Luke 21:28-35; Luke 17:27-33.

I have already shown that the word for “pray” is not proseuchomai (#4336; to pray); but deomai; to beg; #1189 (see The New Strong’s Complete Dictionary of Bible Words).

What you need to know is the meaning of “begging ALWAYS”! The words for “praying always” should be “begging at every time” where “at each Kairos”, #2520, Jesus refers to each of the “set events” that are “about to HAPPENS on the Last Day”!! It makes no sense for Jesus to promise the Jews they will be “kept alive” (Luke 17:33) ON THAT DAY ... Luke 17:27-30 ... unless it is the “appointed time” for our Resurrection, Rewards, Retribution and their Rescue!!! This word, by itself, is used only once in Revelation for three of these four "appointed events" that are predicted to occurr at the 7th Trumpet. Rev.11:18.

Jesus is saying that “at each set of HAPPENINGS ON THAT DAY, to keep on begging in order to PREVAIL (#2729; katischuo; to prevail; NOT kataxioo; #2661 to be counted worthy) BECAUSE “all things are about to happenS on that day”!!! He uses the plural noun, all things, with a singular verb, happens, to show that “each of the events set for that Day come unexpectedly, as a snare, on all mankind in ONE HOUR ... but when the all-consuming hope of Israel will be fulfilled to God's glory!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net We are among the Saints who must agree the Day of the Lord is a single 12-Hour-Day before there can be unity on this question. :saint:

 

[Mel Miller]

This Will Make You Think of the Posts on Labor Day

skypair,

Mel’s Quote:
Trib-Martyrs receive the highest possible reward offered to the Church after the HOUR of Trial has ended. Rev.3:10-12; 7:14-17; 20:4-6.
Reply by skypair:
That's very magnanimous of YOU to award the trib martyrs OUR crowns and OUR pillars! Problem for you is that NJ ain't comin' to earth for 1000 years after the judgment. Is that how long we will wait for our reward in NJ? To have the name of it and of our God written on our forehead?

Mel, I realize this all may confuse you and your website that you are deeply committed to. Wouldn't it be a travesty if you were wrong all this time!


So you are not pleased that God should give the special reward of “serving God as
Pillars in the Temple of heaven for 1000 years” and thus take away what belongs to Pre-Trib Saints! You don’t see the big picture at all by assuming the New Jerusalem
“ain’t coming to earth for another 1000 years” after the first resurrection of Rev.20:5-6.

You know you can’t restrict the “first resurrection” of Rev.20:4-6 to Pre-Trib saints!
You have backed yourself into my corner where ALL who survive to the END will reign on earth with Christ for 1000 years WHILE the New Jerusalem remains in heaven!! Rev.2:25-27; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.3:10-12. The primary reason for the revelation of the Reign of Martyrs with Christ in heaven for 1000 years is to strengthen and fortify their faith while “loving NOT their life unto death” UNTIL the Hour of testing envelopes the entire earth and we who survived are “kept from that Hour” while the Jews will be “kept alive” through that Hour!!!

Until Believers accept the Last Day as a 12-Hour-Day during which 100 verses in the Book of Revelation are fulfilled, there can be no unity on the question of who takes part in the “first resurrection” NOR agreement with Paul that “ALL the Saints should (and will) prove worthy to come with Jesus”! I Thess.3:13; 2 Thess.1:5,11.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net We are all among the Saints, whether Pre-Trib or Post-Trib :saint:

 

[Mel Miller]

Something to Make You Think

skypair,

My last post needs clarification after realizing one paragraph is incorrect:

My quote:
_____________________________________________________________
So you are not pleased that God should give the special reward of “serving God as Pillars in the Temple of heaven for 1000 years” and thus take away what belongs to Pre-Trib Saints! You don’t see the big picture at all by assuming the New Jerusalem “ain’t coming to earth for another 1000 years” after the first resurrection of Rev.20:5-6.
____________________________________________________________

I should have written: "You won't see the big picture until you realize the
Martyrs will dwell in the New Jerusalem for 1000 years before they and it
come down upon/over the New Earth"!

Obviously the reason for the Millennial reign of Rev.20:4 being attributed to them is that their reward begins at the First Resurrection; and that it
requires the New Jerusalem to remain in heaven during that entire time!!

We do not rob Pre-Trib Martyrs of their reward since they too should
reign in heaven and "serve God as Pillars in its Temple for 1000 years"!!!
Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-6.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[skypair]

Mel,

We're not getting too far, are we? For instance, why would the trib martyrs spend 1000 years on heavenly NJ if we see them resurrected to the earth in Rev 20:4-6?

And I don't see any pretrib martyrs in Rev 20:4-6.

But as to the rest, I can't pick through your thoughts. Mostly I know that you have a anti-dispensational, anti-Israel view that need updating. Go pick up that book I recommended. :thumbs:

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Skypair -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[Mel Miller]

Will Make You Think

Mel,

We're not getting too far, are we? For instance, why would the trib martyrs spend 1000 years on heavenly NJ if we see them resurrected to the earth in Rev 20:4-6?

And I don't see any pretrib martyrs in Rev 20:4-6.

But as to the rest, I can't pick through your thoughts. Mostly I know that you have a anti-dispensational, anti-Israel view that need updating. Go pick up that book I recommended.
skypair

Well, my erstwhile friend,
When a person gives up without having supported his case, as you are doing here, it is common for him to state how difficult it is to understand
my view. This is shown by your incredulity with respect to (1) Why Martyrs should spend 1000 years in heaven "serving God as Pillars in the New Jerusalem Temple in heaven" AND (2) By suggesting it would be out of character for Pre-Trib Martyrs to be included among them AND (3) By failing to grasp how they could possibly be included among those raised up in the First Resurrection of Rev.20:5. Your confession of incredulity is as incredible as your repeated self-styled boast about possessung "real knowledge of eschatology".

I deeply resent your accusation that I am "anti-Israel" and believe God will chastise you for this. As for dispensational doctrine, I knew it better than you do before you were born, unless you are at least 70. I was immersed in Larkin's charts from 1935 to 1943 and was a staunch advocate of Pre-Trib Doctrine. I was taught by the Archbishop of Dispensationalism, Dr. Harry Ironside, pastor of Moody Church from 1940 to 1943.

So will you please stop parading your superior knowledge and cease beating that drum, as in your last post, that:
quote:
_____________________________________________________________
It is typical of "entry level" students of eschatology that they fail to account for dispensations, particularly as regards the old covenant vs. new. It is typical that they either don't see Daniel's 70th week or they dismiss it as concurrent with the church era.
______________________________________________________

I am one of a very few who anticipate that 5 Million Jews will become the
channel of God's blessing to at least 200 million Muslims during the 1000-
Year Reign of Christ over the earth.

As for Prophecy, can you prove, as I have done , that the last day of Daniel's prophecy of 69 Sevens was the "appointed DAY" Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey on Palm Sunday? Unless you can do so, you have not yet reached the "entry level or prophecy" which will claim
I have yet to enter. And can you see Christ returning within 1263 1/2 days of the "Abomination standing in the Temple" as Antichrist becomes ONE OF FIVE CATALYSTS that launch the ENDTIME!!
SHALOM!!!:wavey:

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

Mel,

Hey -- you must be older than dirt! I guess God got finished creating Adam and had some left over so He decided to make YOU!! :smilewinkgrin:

I will respect your education from now on. It would seem, then, that you reject dispensationalism for personal reasons -- right? I mean, that the MK is some kind of extension of the "law" still doesn't give the tribulation to Israel alone, does it? And why do you abandon that?

In fact, why do you abandon the dispensationalism of Ironside?

Basically, the church (including pretrib martyrs) are rewarded at the Bema and are seen at the beginning of the trib as ELDERS in Rev 4-5, etal. with "crowns." The martyrs of the trib arise postrib in Rev 20:4-6 and reign with Jesus in the MK ON EARTH.

Maybe you didn't understand dispensationalism to begin with, eh? I mean -- 200 million Muslims escape the gathering of the "tares?" What are you thinking?? And mixing real trib days (1260) with figurative Daniel's 70th week (3 1/2) days???

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

This Will Really Make You Think

skypair,
Quote:
Maybe you didn't understand dispensationalism to begin with, eh? I mean -- 200 million Muslims escape the gathering of the "tares?" What are you thinking?? And mixing real trib days (1260) with figurative Daniel's 70th week (3 1/2) days???

My Response:
Where in the world did you get the idea of gathering the "tares" prior to the great tribulation since they are “reaped first” and the wheat is reaped second? Matt.13:30. What are you thinking?? What do you mean by “mixing real trib days (1260) with figurative Daniel's 70th week (3 1/2) days”??? Both ideas are mish-mash!

Your quote continues to belittle the knowledge I had long before the modern debate began in the early seventies that questioned who it is that will be “TAKEN and LEFT”! I was taught Dispensationalism from the age of 14 to the age of 19 (1934 to 1939) by a Plymouth Brethren minister and could give the detailed outline of the charts of 7 dispensations by Clarence Larkin!! I made the change to PostTrib in 1945 when I found I could not prove Christ might come at “any-moment” AND that the “tares are separated from wheat” when Christ comes at the END of the Age!!!

But PreTrib doctrine took another 35 years to come up with its greatest single shift around 1970! I still attended an Independent Baptist church because I hold to the Dispensational Restoration of Israel at the Head of the Nations. But then my pastor preached that he no longer supported the teaching that Believers are TAKEN to heaven in the Rapture and that
Unbelievers are given a second chance during the great Tribulation to be saved. For it was obvious the “wheat and tares” are not separated at a Pre-Trib Rapture!! Even in your Video of those Left Behind, YOU seem to at least recognize the OLD View was incorrect that those LEFT BEHIND are NOT “all taken away and Destroyed” as Luke clearly states of those who mourn and then "beg (deomai) to be able to stand before the Son of Man WHEN THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN"!!! Matt.24:30; Luke 21:25-36.

The OLD view was based on Matthew. The NEW view recognized Luke see the wicked "all taken away and destroyed". The pastor finally recognized Jesus did NOT say the “wheat were all taken away” in the Rapture.

I remained in a Dispensational-Teaching Church since I had long since realized Jesus taught the restoration of the entire remnant of Israel at the End of this Age when they “see Him coming in the name of the Lord”! They are the primary ones who “stand erect, look up, begin to mourn and then beg (deomai), at each (kairos) appointed occurrence of the things set (about; mello) to happen on that day and to be able (prevail) to stand before the Son of Man”!! And Zechariah requires that all those “left of the nations that come against Jerusalem must come annually to worship God at Jerusalem”. Zech.14:16!!!

I also had long since realized the predicted “10-1 ratio of Gentiles to Jews” coming to the God of Israel during the Millennium requires at least 50 million of the 12 Tribes of Ishmael will be Blessed with salvation before God’s promise to Abraham of countless numbers of his “natural seed” can be fulfilled! It made no sense to require Trib-Saints to be LEFT BEHIND to populate the Kingdom and still produce that “countless number” of worshipers in addition to countless numbers of goat nations who will turn against the Saints at Jerusalem in the final Gog and Magog war at the End of the Age to Come.

Finally, Justification by Grace thru faith is true for all Believers of all Dispensations until Jesus restores Israel at the head of the nations! Then the blessings of the Millennium depend upon worshiping God annually at Jerusalem for 1000 years. They must treat the brethren of Jesus as they would treat Him after the Trib-Martyrs sing the victory song that men will come to worship God. Rev.15:3-4!! Pre-Trib doctrine, as taught to me, did not allow a second chance for unbelievers during the Great Tribulation … that is, if they had heard and rejected the Gospel!!!

That’s just the Big Picture. I have 50 reasons why there are not TWO LAST DAYS, TWO LAST TRUMPS, TWO ENDS OF THIS AGE, TWO GROUPS OF SAINTS NOR TWO TIMES SEPARATED BY SEVEN YEARS TO “BRING THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO SLEEP IN JESUS” FROM HEAVEN AND TAKE SURVIVING SAINTS “FROM EARTH TO MEET JESUS AT THE SYNAGOGUE IN HEAVEN”. Mark 13:27; I Thess.4:13-17; 2 Thess.2:1.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[skypair]

Mel,

Makes me sad to hear how easily you abandon your roots. So Jesus is now coming "expectedly" vs. unexpectedly (Mt 24:42)? So it was unsatisfying to you that the "householder" and the 5 "foolish virgins" were shown in the same passage as left behind into the tribulation? And that 5 churches (Rev 2-3) are left behind all or in part to join apostate Thyatira in creating the one world religion of AC?

Quite clearly this has NOTHING to do with the "wheat and tares" gathering yet. No one is trying to foist that on you. The fact is that the "wheat and tares," the "hidden treasure," the "pearl," and the "fish" (Mt 13:43-50) are ALL postrib gatherings. You should have been able to see that all along. In fact, notice that of the "dead" imagery (treasure and pearl) there are NO bad gathered -- only of the living Jews ("wheat") and Gentiles ("good fish"). If this was, indeed, one of your issues then you and whoever you believed on this didn't understand the parables.

But notice too that the "tares" are gathered BEFORE the "wheat." That was just another clue (in addition to the "angels" doing the gathering) that this was NOT pretrib rapture but the postrib anticipated return of Christ.

I remained in a Dispensational-Teaching Church since I had long since realized Jesus taught the restoration of the entire remnant of Israel at the End of this Age ...

Actually, you believe a distortion thereof. It's one thing to see the remnant going into the MK -- it's another to rightly "assign" Israel their 70th week regarding Daniel's people and the sanctuary, Dan 9:24. It's entirely different to see their "Pentecost" at midtrib (Joel 2:28-32, Zech 12:10), their fleeing to Petra for 1150 days, and the Jews coming back to cleanse the temple causing the nations of AC's kingdom to gather around Jerusalem for Armageddon! The church is apostate during the trib, my friend! God has no use for the church but instead, AC and the "dragon" will be her god!!

As to Abraham's seed -- the dichotomy is between natural seed and spiritual seed, not between natural and natural. Your error is in once again obliterating the distinctions between Israel and the church. Thus, you need a "2nd fold" (so to speak) which Christ says is the church.

Furthermore, you neglect to see that among those resurrected into the MK are millions of infants and mentally handicapped (Isa 49:19-23) who died "just" before God. They along with the "sheep" nations - the "good fish" and "wheat" - will inhabit and repopulate the earth.

I agree with you on the narrow view of pretrib ragarding salvation during the trib. I believe that even the parable of the "foolish virgins" teaches that the left behind church will convert/"buy." (cf. Rev 3:18). But there's still no license to believe that OT Israel and NT church are one entity either now or in the trib. In that regard, you are no dispensationalist, mel.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Something to Make You Think

skypair,

Your response utterly evades the question of who is taken and left! I see
the Apostate Church utterly destroyed before the great tribulation!! The worship of the Beast has nothing to do with the Church, true or false!!!

Your Quote:
______________________________________________________________
"The church is apostate during the trib, my friend! There's still no license to believe that OT Israel and NT church are one entity either now or in the trib. In that regard, you are no dispensationalist, mel".
_______________________________________________________
Partner in the Faith:

We totally clash from this point forward! So let's say "you win" if the CHURCH WILL NOT BE TRIUMPHANT during the great tribulation!! Our dialogue on this thread, therefore, is over, FINISHED!! Thanks for the discussion!!! I'm not the least interested in reading your reasons for denying the Church and saved of OT Israel are part of the ONE BODY created by the Cross!!!! Eph.2:12-22.

Mel at www.lastday.net :applause:

 

[skypair]

skypair,

Your response utterly evades the question of who is taken and left!

Both! the real church pretrib -- the "tares," the birds consuming their dead flesh, postrib. Happy?

We totally clash from this point forward! So let's say "you win" if the CHURCH WILL NOT BE TRIUMPHANT during the great tribulation!! Our dialogue on this thread, therefore, is over, FINISHED!! Thanks for the discussion!!! I'm not the least interested in reading your reasons for denying the Church and saved of OT Israel are part of the ONE BODY created by the Cross!!!! Eph.2:12-22.

WAA! WAA! I want my mommy!!

BINGO! The church will be triumphant -- IN HEAVEN!

Are you telling me that the church, with AC as the head, will be triumphant?? Well, yeah. You wanna be part of that? Better talk to Jesus.

skypair