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Hermeneutics and the goal of Concordance

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Van

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I use concordance as defined in the dictionary, you have provided no definition, only the assertion my usage is wrong. Generalized disparagement is the hallmark of an empty suit.

On the contrary, I think you have no idea how much of a role computer software plays in efforts like the NET.
 
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Van

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In Romans 3:30 we see the Jews are justified "by" faith, but the Gentiles are justified "through" faith. But Paul in Galatians 3:38 says the Gentiles are justified "by" faith.
Should we conclude that Romans 3:30 is presenting a distinction without a difference? Or is the translation corrupted in some way?
 

John of Japan

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Hi John of Japan,

I think you are being a tad judgmental. I think you are using your understanding of the meaning of the word concordance, and since I am not using it in that way, somehow my usage is inappropriate. As I have said, I use words as defined in the dictionary. Concordance simply means a state of agreement, and so choosing the fewest English words possible to translate a Greek word provides concordance.

If we back away from that a bit, we might agree that translating a Greek word into an English word that changes the intended meaning of the Greek word reflects a lack of concordance. The question is not whether the practice is proper according to the accepted practices of translators, we know all of them throw in any related word in that fits their purpose. No, the issue is what is the best practice. And I say minimizing the number of different words used to translate a Greek word is a worthy goal, a sound hermeneutic.
So let me get this straight. You don't know Greek, you're not a linguist, you're not a translator. Yet when I object to your view of concordance as being inaccurate, you believe Im being "a tad judgmental," is that correct?

Since you don't consider me to be an authority, just so you know, here is a definition of concorance from an acknowleged expert: "verbal consistency, verbal concordance: quality resulting from the effort to translate a given word from the original consistently by a single word in the receptor language" (The Theory and Practice of Translation, by Eugene Nida and Charles R. Taber, p. 208). Get that? "a single word in the receptor language."

You, sir, are wrong and should admit it.
 
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John of Japan

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I use concordance as defined in the dictionary, you have provided no definition, only the assertion my usage is wrong. Generalized disparagement is the hallmark of an empty suit.
I've now provided a definition from an acknowledged authority in Bible translation, Eugene Nida. Will you now admit you are wrong? Or are you more of an authority than Eugene Nida?
On the contrary, I think you have no idea how much of a role computer software plays in efforts like the NET.
On the contrary, I am a Bible translator who has translated the entire NT into Japanese, and tomorrow will continue with the 2nd draft with my Japanese partner. I regularly use six different software packages in three languages in my translation work, and am well aware of the benefits. In the near future we will be putting our Japanese NT on the web in imitation of the NET Bible.

But you, what have you translated of the Word of God? What foreign languages do you know? What books have you even read about translation? Convince me you know what you are talking about and I might consider this conversation worth continuing.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I've now provided a definition from an acknowledged authority in Bible translation, Eugene Nida. Will you now admit you are wrong? Or are you more of an authority than Eugene Nida?
On the contrary, I am a Bible translator who has translated the entire NT into Japanese, and tomorrow will continue with the 2nd draft with my Japanese partner. I regularly use six different software packages in three languages in my translation work, and am well aware of the benefits. In the near future we will be putting our Japanese NT on the web in imitation of the NET Bible.

But you, what have you translated of the Word of God? What foreign languages do you know? What books have you even read about translation? Convince me you know what you are talking about and I might consider this conversation worth continuing.

Want to thank all of you that have been attempting to answer van here on this OP...

All showed Christ like tones...

This is an area where it really does need one to be a "scholar/specialist" in order to even be able to discuss this topic!

Alas, if we can JUST carry on this good spirit unto the Theology board when cals and arms debate!
 

humblethinker

Active Member
This is an area where it really does need one to be a "scholar/specialist" in order to even be able to discuss this topic!


I agree with you here except that I would modify your statement to read "authoritatively discuss this topic".

Alas, if we can JUST carry on this good spirit unto the Theology board when cals and arms debate!

I agree with you here about carry over into the Theology board!
 

franklinmonroe

Active Member
... You want to keep your translations readable and sensible. The Amplified attempts this but fails miserably. ...
However Van, you may want to investigate the Concordant Literal Version of the New Testament; I've read it and its not bad (you may not like its textual basis or its theological bent). Also, works such as the Basic Bible use a very limited vocabulary (about 800-1200 words) which by necessity would result in more concordance.
 

Van

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Hi John of Japan, what part of I use the dictionary definition did you not understand. I do not have to use your "single word" definition, or that of Dr. Nida. Are you a dictatoral elitist who thinks he can require folks to only use terms your are comfortable with? If you want to make an argument from authority, the American Heritage Dictionary is my authority.

And folks note the effort to discredit me, rather than address the issue I presented.

If a Greek word means to assign a person unilaterally, i.e. they have no say in the matter, like God putting someone in Christ, He does it unilaterally, is translated "appointed" and then a different Greek word means to assign a person by mutual consent, i.e both parties must agree to the arrangment, then we a reader of the English sees "appointed" there is no "concordance" with the actual Greek word and may be understood with the meaning of the other word. See the problem?
 

glfredrick

New Member
I have asked several questions but not one of those who question my qualifications have answered them. But we have had several posts on KJV onlyism.

Because you seem to be headed in that direction when you bring passages in that translation then ask questions as to "why" a certain word is translated in the manner it is.

I asked why we have a single Greek word translated into many different words rather than a few. No answer.

I have EXTENSIVELY answered you on this issue, but you simply do not like the response. If you are waiting for another response, you will likely be waiting for a REAL LONG TIME, as my response is the scholarly response.

Just to recapitulate my response in short form, there is NO one-to-one correspondence between translated words, rather "concepts" are translated as best as is possible in context with the idea carried forth in the original text. Additionally, English (or whichever language is being translated) synonyms are employed to operate within conventional grammar structures and also to offer various levels of readability, determined by the level that the translator wishes to put forth into the market, i.e., a 6th grade reading level, a 12th grade reading level, etc.

I asked why we have so many different Greek words translated into the same English word, as if there was no difference in the intended message, when the inspired word chose this Greek word and not some other. No answer.

Because sometimes different words can have the same usage. I offered the English example "run" which has over 30 different usages.

Greek is similar, but you not having a grasp of Greek scholarship by your own admittance, would not understand that, hence your effort to try to make simple what is in fact rather complex.

Most everyone claims there is no problem and the only reason I believe there is a problem is a lacking in my qualifications. To me this is simply a smoke screen to avoid specific responses.

No, in fact, this IS the problem. You can continue in your rampant ignorance and fail to even grasp that the problem is yours, or you can do as I and several others have suggested and go out to gain an education in Greek grammar.

Summary, if "ek" which has a large range of meanings, could be captured using 8 English words or combination thereof, then more Greek words ought to be translated into 3 or four words. This would reduce overlap, so different Greek words would be translated with different English words in most cases and thus more clearly present with clarity the actual message of the inspired word.

Again, depending on context, and the conventions of GREEK grammar (you continually wish to employ a VERY SIMPLE, GRADE SCHOOL LEVEL, of English grammar as your guide) words like "ek" can have multiple usages as has been well explained in the posts above.

English, on a level above grade school, also has similar issues. One can use, but, therefore, and, an, the, a, so be it, however, is, was, were, etc., etc., etc., depending on context to carry on the thought of a particular sentence. You take for granted this practice, but you don't know that it is based on certain conventions of grammar that ARE NOT THE SAME in the Greek language.

To refer back to Romans 3:30 which says the circumcised are saved by faith and the uncircumcised are saved through faith, my question is what does this mean, what is the difference being presented by Paul which we may grasp.

What Paul is saying here is actually rather simple, and the term he uses is not "saved," but rather, "justified" (a legal term). He is saying that the means to salvation for the Jew (circumcised) and the Gentile (uncircumcised) is the same -- justification by faith BY God. In other words, God gives the justification and God gives the faith. Why do I say that both justification and faith are by God? The passage says "by God who will..." No mention of the actions of the individual. Even more, the gist of the passage is not circumcision or lack thereof, nor is it justification by faith, but it is actually the fact that in God's eyes Jew and Gentile are one and the same -- lost sinners in need of salvation (justification) and that God handles both the same, for he is one God, not separate gods for Jew and Gentile.

If we back up a couple of verses, we see that Paul is making an argument against a special dispensation for the Jews, who approach God as if their circumcision or covenant sets them apart as somehow special concerning justification. Paul is countering this argument and saying that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

The Jews made the claim that God was their God only, and they were wrong.

No answer will be forthcoming on that question either, or so I suspect.

As I said above, you have been answered, and well. You just refuse the answer offered because it does not match your fundamentalistic and un-educated view of what the answer should be.
 

Van

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Hi Glfredrick, I was not headed in that direction, it was simply a lie to discredit me.

Lets take a word like good. Now the quality of being good is a, wait for it, concept. And this concept can be translated by the word, wait for it, good. So your argument is simply mumbo jumbo.

Yes two Greek words can sometimes be used interchangeably, but what if the author's intent was to present a difference? By using the same English word, rather than two related English words, you obliterate the distinction.

Glfredrick, when you attack my qualifications, you simply reinforce the fact you post like an empty suit.

My grasp of English is quite limited, but that does not suggest in the slightest I am not spot on.

You have no idea what Paul was saying in Romans 3:30, as you are parroting one of three major divergent views on the verse. What I am saying is that the context allows the basic meaning of ek, i.e out of, to be used in this verse and then the message would be clear.

And you close with yet another logical fallacy.
 

glfredrick

New Member
Van, I would suggest that you are hopelessly mired in your own ignorance. Take that as an attack... You always do anyway. It is a character flaw that I only pray God will work out of you one of these days.
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
And you close with yet another logical fallacy.

I say this as respectfully as I can, when I am rebuked gently by 5 or 6 brothers in Christ concerning a matter, I take that as meaning that I am wrong, not them.

You would be wise to do likewise. Be blessed.
 

Van

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Reply to Franklinmonroe,

However Van, you may want to investigate the Concordant Literal Version of the New Testament; I've read it and its not bad (you may not like its textual basis or its theological bent). Also, works such as the Basic Bible use a very limited vocabulary (about 800-1200 words) which by necessity would result in more concordance.

Thank you, yours is the first post that clearly indicates a grasp of my issue.

And yes, I was so excited when I came across the "Concordant Literal Version" but also as you suggest, this effort appears to be agenda driven. So close but no cigar. :)

Lets talk about "faith." Paul uses it as "faithful faith" i.e. a faith from which faithfulness flows, but James slices the same Greek word differently, using "live faith" as Paul uses faith, and dead faith, as a lip service faith that does not alter behavior. The concept of "concordance" using my definition and not that of Dr. Nida, would have Paul's usage translated "faithful faith."
 

franklinmonroe

Active Member
In Romans 3:30 we see the Jews are justified "by" faith, but the Gentiles are justified "through" faith. But Paul in Galatians 3:38 says the Gentiles are justified "by" faith.
Should we conclude that Romans 3:30 is presenting a distinction without a difference? Or is the translation corrupted in some way?
The first KJV word translated "by" in Romans 3:30 is ek, but the second is a different Greek word (dia).

Galatians 3 does not have 38 verses; but the phrase "by faith" occurs at Galatians 3:11, 22, 24 (all three ek), and 26 (dia).
 
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John of Japan

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Want to thank all of you that have been attempting to answer van here on this OP...

All showed Christ like tones...

This is an area where it really does need one to be a "scholar/specialist" in order to even be able to discuss this topic!

Alas, if we can JUST carry on this good spirit unto the Theology board when cals and arms debate!
Yeah, compared to the theology board, this one has been pretty benign lately. :flower::saint:
 

John of Japan

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Hi John of Japan, what part of I use the dictionary definition did you not understand. I do not have to use your "single word" definition, or that of Dr. Nida. Are you a dictatoral elitist who thinks he can require folks to only use terms your are comfortable with? If you want to make an argument from authority, the American Heritage Dictionary is my authority.
You don't understand. You are venturing into a specialized scholarly discipline, that of translation studies. You can't use the American Heritage Dictionary for that any more than you could use it for medical terminology. It just isn't there. You need a specialized dictionary for that.

I've given you a definition from a glossary in a book on Bible translation by a well-respected authority, Eugene Nida. By your refusal to accept that, you show that you consider yourself to be your own authority. That's sad.
 
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John of Japan

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If a Greek word means to assign a person unilaterally, i.e. they have no say in the matter, like God putting someone in Christ, He does it unilaterally, is translated "appointed" and then a different Greek word means to assign a person by mutual consent, i.e both parties must agree to the arrangment, then we a reader of the English sees "appointed" there is no "concordance" with the actual Greek word and may be understood with the meaning of the other word. See the problem?
No, I only see your lack of knowledge of Greek. This is a jumbled paragraph. It has no relation to a genuine knowledge of how to translate the passages you apparantly are referring to.
 

Van

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Hi John of Japan, I have no interest in continuing our discussion. I do not need insults, but insight.

Folks, if two different Greek words, with differing meaning, are translated into the same English word, the translation lacks concordance, as defined in the dictionary.

If a Greek word has a range of meanings, and it is always translated into the same English word, with only one meaning that matches the Greek word, then that translation lacks correspondence. Thus Dr Nida's definition is without merit, absurd probably misrepresented by John's encapsulation.

If a Greek word, meaning unilateral assignment, is translated as "appointed" and then a different Greek word, meaning mutual agreement, is also translated "appointed" then the reader might think the appointment was unilateral when in fact it was by mutual agreement, and vice versa. Thus the translation lacks concordance with the Greek meaning as intended by the author.

And so, with the lack of scholarship exhibited by the so called scholars, the message of scripture has be obliterated to a significant degree. This bed of confusion has given birth to the splintered body of Christ.
 
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Van

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Hi Franklinmonroe, sorry for the typo.

Compare Romans 5:1which says men are justified "by" (ek) faith and Romans 3:30 which says the same men (Gentiles) are justified through faith.

One theory of interpreting Romans 3:30 is that it provides a distinction without a difference, with "ek" and "dia" used interchangeably. I think that is unlikely. I think the idea is the Jews are justified "out of" faith [in the Law]. So, assuming for the moment I understand the verse, this illustrates using the wrong meaning of a Greek word. And the more choices you have, the more likely this sort of error will occur. Say you looked at a word with three meanings. And meaning 1 occurs most often, then 2, and then only a few times 3. So when you come across the word, the principle of concordance would say, try the first meaning (number 1) and if that works contextually, stick with it.

Now this could be sliced up a tad, most frequent use by author, the you get the idea hopefully.

Lets return to "by (ek) faith. What does this mean? Does it mean the faith is accomplishing something, i.e faith is a supernatural soap? I think not. It is God who justifies or not. Thus our faith in Christ provides the basis of God choosing to justify us, see verse 26. This is consistent with God justifying us through our faith.
 
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John of Japan

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Hi John of Japan, I have no interest in continuing our discussion. I do not need insults, but insight.
I've not insulted you, simply pointed out your lack of knowledge in the areas of Bible translation studies and Greek. If you are truly looking for insight, you'll humbly ask for help in understanding what translating by concordance is. So far you've not done that, but prefer to walk your own path, contrary to known experts in the field. Enjoy your solitary walk.
 
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