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His determinate counsel

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Allan

Active Member
russell55 said:
The view that God must be the sole source of all his knowledge is indeed based upon scripture:

"I AM who I AM."
  1. Who God is comes from himself.
  2. Perfect knowledge is an aspect of God's being.
  3. Therefore, God's perfect knowledge comes from God himself.
You missed my what I was trying to say because I did not say it properly. I did not mean that the Knowledge of God came from somewhere OTHER than God. What I ment (to be much clearer) is that we do not know how God thinks and what constitutes the fulness of His thought. Thus my the qualifier of what I meant:
...as in CAN HE muse things in His mind, or CAN HE see all events of all things and narrow them down to His liking
in contrast to God only knowing a straight line of events that have no potential possiblities possible in the mind of God. It was my fault for the misunderstanding, and hope this clarifies it a little more.

Please NOTE: I don't question that God is the sole source of all His knowledge, I dispute that we can know anything about how God thinks regarding His knowledge and how is specifically plays into Gods decrees other than knowing they are in conjunction one with the another.
 
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2 Timothy2:1-4

New Member
npetreley said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you agreed that there's no way anyone could say "yes" unless their eyes were opened by God, right? So God has to take action on an individual. You probably think He does it to everyone. On my side, we think God chooses some.

But let me get this straight. The yes or no option is so important to you, that you'd rather see a percentage of people say "no" and go to hell whose eyes were opened by God, than see them ALL go to heaven. That choice is so important that you wouldn't actually want all of them to be so overjoyed by the good news that it was a 100% guarantee that they'd all say "yes", right? That wouldn't be a choice, because nobody said "no". So the only way you'll be satisfied is if some percentage say "no" and go to hell. That's the only way to prove there was a choice involved.

Does that make you feel more special? I mean, without people saying "no" and going to hell, how could you feel superior to anyone else for having said "yes"? After all, what made the difference between you saying "yes" and them saying "no? You must be better, right?


Since this has turned into an occasion for an attack I will bow out. God Bless.
 

npetreley

New Member
2 Timothy2:1-4 said:
Since this has turned into an occasion for an attack I will bow out. God Bless.

It's not an attack. It's a legitimate question. Why does there have to be a "no"? If God's enlightenment is always irresistible and always gets a "yes" response, what is that to you? Why is that unacceptable? Why would you say to God, "Back off with the enlightenment and make salvation less desirable until man is likely to say "no" some of the time, otherwise I won't be satisfied that we really had a choice."
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Allan said:
Not so, at least as I am understanding both you and Calvinism.
You are again stating what I set forth already.
God decrees and that is why God knows what He knows.

So if God knows all things, as even you espouse, why the need to decree anything since all that God knows will come about - EVEN IN YOUR VIEW - There is STILL NO NEED.

His decrees set the boundries to and of what will happen and why. If His decrees were not in place and He just let fly creation, anything can happen with any potential varity of endings. Gods decrees are the established boundries which bring time and space into divine order that all things which are known and determined by God are fulled in accordance with His plan.

If you would like an order from us, I request (if possible) to see the list of Gods decrees in the order God told us He decreed them in from you first.
tis so Allan. :)

It pretty easy,

My view..

1) God decrees, therefore He knows.
2) it happens.

You view..
1) God looks and finds out what will be,
2) God then decrees based on what He sees.
3) it happens.

You missed the whole point. I 'embolded' the above where I said you have a problem and what the problem is. It had nothing to do with "God being in full control of all things and decreeing things to come about"
As it turns out i got your point, and you are wrong. I have no problem for God controls all things....and that is the point.

You have absolutely NO biblical support for your order of decrees and why God determined them to be in that order IF He determined any order at all. This is pure speculation AT BEST.
You mean other then the verse I already gave? :)
Face it Allan, God controls all things. Please do nt have God learning from man.

You nor I haven't a biblical clue as to why God decreed ANY of His decrees (other than it pleased Him to do so in accordance to His purpose and plan - and no disagree with that - or should not at least.
Speak for yourself. I have the Bible and have posted verse to back my view. This will be the 3rd thread this week, where you pass over the verse and spread your logic.

Say as many times as you wish. Still ...the Bible stands.

Both sides do this to a point, though my side isn't based so resolutely upon what we do not know and making it the basis of how it all fits together.
I have verse. You have not shown any.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Allan said:
James, this is the worst rendering of scripture I have seen from you. That is NOT what it is speaking to. The context is that unless you are born again you can not know the things that God is doing fully. You know the wind is there but you don't know where it is going to or where it is coming from. In short, you don't understand its reason for being there or doing what it's doing. You only know that it is present.

Nic was asking how to be saved. Why did not Jesus tell nic to say the sinners prayer and sign a card? Its pretty clear what He said.

NIV
8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

NASB
8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

YOUNG
8the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

I could list more...they all say the same thing.

ALLAN..
James, this is the worst rendering of scripture I have seen from you
Being you made such a bizarre statement, maybe I should show you I'm not alone.

Gill
Ver. 8. The wind bloweth where it listeth,.... For ought any mortal can say, or do to the contrary: and so the Spirit of God is a free agent in regeneration; he works how, and where, and when he pleases; he acts freely in the first operation of his grace on the heart, and in all after influences of it; as well as in the donation of his gifts to men, for different purposes; see 1Co 12:11; and this grace of the Spirit in regeneration, like the wind, is powerful and irresistible; it carries all before it; there is no withstanding it; it throws down Satan's strong holds, demolishes the fortifications of sin; the whole posse of hell, and the corruptions of a man's heart, are not a match for it; when the Spirit works, who can let?

Matt Henry
The same word (pneuma) signifies both the wind and the Spirit. The Spirit came upon the apostles in a rushing mighty wind (Acts ii. 2), his strong influences on the hearts of sinners are compared to the breathing of the wind (Ezek. xxxvii. 9), and his sweet influences on the souls of saints to the north and south wind, Cant. iv. 16. This comparison is here used to show, 1. That the Spirit, in regeneration, works arbitrarily, and as a free agent. The wind bloweth where it listeth for us, and does not attend our order, nor is subject to our command. God directs it; it fulfils his word, Ps. cxlviii. 8. The Spirit dispenses his influences where, and when, on whom, and in what measure and degree, he pleases, dividing to every man severally as he will, 1 Cor. xii. 11. 2. That he works powerfully, and with evident effects: Thou hearest the sound thereof; though its causes are hidden, its effects are manifest. When the soul is brought to mourn for sin, to groan under the burden of corruption, to breathe after Christ, to cry Abba—Father, then we hear the sound of the Spirit, we find he is at work, as Acts ix. 11, Behold he prayeth. 3. That he works mysteriously, and in secret hidden ways: Thou canst not tell whence it comes, nor whither it goes. How it gathers and how it spends its strength is a riddle to us; so the manner and methods of the Spirit's working are a mystery. Which way went the Spirit? 1 Kings xxii. 24. See Eccl. xi. 5, and compare it with Ps. cxxxix. 14.

Dr. Ray Pritchard
I. The Wind of the Spirit
This morning we begin by looking at the words of Jesus in John 3:8. This verse occurs during the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus, the ruler of the Jews who came to Jesus by night. When Jesus said, “You must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God,” Nicodemus did not understand the concept. So Jesus explained that flesh produces flesh (speaking of human birth), but only God’s Spirit could give new birth in the realm of the spirit (v. 6). Then Jesus added this word of explanation in verse 8: “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” Pay special attention to two words in this verse: “wind” and “Spirit.” Though they are two words in English, in Greek they come from the same word: pneuma. We get the English words pneumatic (an air-powered drill) and pneumonia (a disease of the lungs) from this Greek word. Depending on the context, pneuma can mean breath, wind or spirit. In this case, the same Greek word has two meanings in the same verse.

Wind serves as a particularly good symbol of the Holy Spirit. As Jesus points out to Nicodemus, wind by its very nature is invisible and unpredictable. The wind that blows today from the north may blow from the south tomorrow or from the east or west or not at all. We feel its effect and hear it whistling through the leaves, but the wind itself is totally free from man’s control. Wind exists everywhere on the earth, is continually in motion, and may be experienced in varying degrees—from a slight breeze to a mighty rushing wind to the destructive force of a tornado. In a closed room, the air soon becomes stagnant. But when the window is open, the incoming wind blows out the stifling air. On a hot summer’s day, a cool breeze refreshes everyone. Just as the wind is everywhere in the world, even so the Holy Spirit’s work is universal, not limited to one country, region, or race of humanity. Similar to the unpredictability of the wind, no one can say for certain where the Spirit will blow in great power today or tomorrow. As the wind is beyond man’s control, in the same way no one can control the work of the Spirit. As the wind blows from the heavens, so the Holy Spirit is sent from heaven.

According to Dutch theologian Abraham Kuyper, “The Holy Spirit leaves no footprints.” Like the wind he is invisible, unpredictable and uncontrollable. Have you ever tried to catch the wind in a bottle? When I was a child and we were taking a trip in the car, I would hold a cup outside the window, hoping to somehow catch the wind. But it can’t be done. The same is true of the Holy Spirit. He is sovereign and will not be taken captive by any person. They call Chicago “the Windy City,” and with good reason. The wind blows here nearly all year round. Sometimes the wind is a gentle breeze rustling through the leaves. In the winter, the cold north wind roars into town as an “Alberta Clipper.” Earlier this week, a severe thunderstorm blew through Oak Park with winds so strong, they knocked out the power for several hours. It’s all the same wind, but we experience it in different ways. So it is with the Spirit. He comes as he wills, and he manifests himself in different ways. And as the story of Nicodemus demonstrates, no one can predict when he will invade a human heart. Last night I spoke with a person who rejoiced that a friend had responded to the gospel after just one invitation. “Sometimes you have to talk to a person again and again, and even then, they may not respond. Do you know what I mean?” Yes, I do know. Why does one person respond immediately while others take much more persuasion? While there are many explanations, one part of the answer is the Holy Spirit. Like the wind, he blows where he wills, and no one can control his movements.

Now you may not agree Allan, but I'm not alone in my views.

James, this is the worst rendering of scripture I have seen from you
hummm :)
 
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Allan said:
I agree as do most all the other Non-Cals, that man does not have libertarian free-will, which is what you and most other Calvinist STILL charge us with. Libertarian Free-Will is substantiated in both Pelegain and Semi-Pel - BOTH of which assert that man can choose to come to God WITHOUT ANY ASSISTANCE FROM GOD AT THE OUTSET. Semi-Pel only slightly differs here in that Once man has determined (without ANY influence from God) to come, only then He realizes He is inadaquate to make it and God rewards the man for his coming with grace to achieve salvation.

Both the Pel and Semi-Pel have two main theological themes that can not be divorced from their theological paradiams.
1. Man come to God unaided and without ANY influence of or from God at the first.
2. Salvation and grace are rewards for mans effort.

NEITHER of these two theological views are held by the majority of Non-Cals.
WE believe that man will not come to God of his own and that is why God MUST FIRST come to man and that THIS is by and due to the Grace of God which no man has earned nor in fact can earn EVER. We hold that man is resposible with the truths God has 'revealed' to us. We have no choice unless God gives it to us and that is always based upon what we do with the truth He has given to us to know.
This is a very accurate rendering regarding most non-Calvinists from MY experience. Excellent presentation Allan.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Allan said:
I agree as do most all the other Non-Cals, that man does not have libertarian free-will, which is what you and most other Calvinist STILL charge us with. Libertarian Free-Will is substantiated in both Pelegain and Semi-Pel - BOTH of which assert that man can choose to come to God WITHOUT ANY ASSISTANCE FROM GOD AT THE OUTSET. Semi-Pel only slightly differs here in that Once man has determined (without ANY influence from God) to come, only then He realizes He is inadaquate to make it and God rewards the man for his coming with grace to achieve salvation.

Both the Pel and Semi-Pel have two main theological themes that can not be divorced from their theological paradiams.
1. Man come to God unaided and without ANY influence of or from God at the first.
2. Salvation and grace are rewards for mans effort.

NEITHER of these two theological views are held by the majority of Non-Cals.
WE believe that man will not come to God of his own and that is why God MUST FIRST come to man and that THIS is by and due to the Grace of God which no man has earned nor in fact can earn EVER. We hold that man is resposible with the truths God has 'revealed' to us. We have no choice unless God gives it to us and that is always based upon what we do with the truth He has given to us to know.

No need to say I'm sorry, but I'm sure you cannot show why I claimed you were Libertarian. I'm sure of it.
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
My view..

1) God decrees, therefore He knows.
2) it happens.

You view..
1) God looks and finds out what will be,
2) God then decrees based on what He sees.
3) it happens.

Jauthur, what's the problem with all this happening simultaneously? We can't know the mind of God. He tells us so Himself. So how are we to know that it must happen according to one veiw or the other?
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
menageriekeeper said:
Jauthur, what's the problem with all this happening simultaneously? We can't know the mind of God. He tells us so Himself. So how are we to know that it must happen according to one veiw or the other?
Amen. It's amazing that some can tell God how things are supposed to be done...
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
menageriekeeper said:
Jauthur, what's the problem with all this happening simultaneously? We can't know the mind of God. He tells us so Himself. So how are we to know that it must happen according to one veiw or the other?
Hello menagerie,

This is what I have noticed. If we keep it very simple, like making a list of order of events, the freewill sides falls apart. You will notice that non-Calvinist will not address this subject. They will change subject or make a wild spin on it.

We do not know the mid of God, but we can understand this point, for the Bible addresses it.

I have given verses to back my views, and the freewill side has none. None to the point. :)

If it happens simultaneously, this would be just as Calvinist say. The decree happens...therefore He knows.

But if it is based on God learning from man, it is not simultaneously.

Does your God know all things? I trust you say yes. Then there is no need to learn my looking into the future is there?
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
Amen. It's amazing that some can tell God how things are supposed to be done...
Hello Webbie,

Its amazing that I see no verse from freewillers. I have backed my claims.

Maybe you would like to help them out. :)
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
"The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28)

"But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is He that giveth thee power to get wealth" (Deut. 8:18)

"A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven" (John 3:27)


Notice this great verse...
"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 5:21)

Think about it for a while. :)
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Just how big is your God?

7The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

8The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

9O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

10Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

11He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

This is what I call the who passage. :)

12Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

13Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

14With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

15Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

16And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.

17All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

18To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

19The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.

20He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.

21Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

24Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

25To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

26Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

27Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?

28Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

Verse 28 should do away with the "other side". :)


You see God does make all things come about. Its not based on what man does, but it is because of what God has done.
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
I'm sorry Jarthur, I thought we were discussing the order in which God does things not the fact that He does do His will.

The only verses you have posted pertinant to this:

Jarthur said:
My view..

1) God decrees, therefore He knows.
2) it happens.

You view..
1) God looks and finds out what will be,
2) God then decrees based on what He sees.
3) it happens.

are these:

13Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

14With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?


28Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

which quite leads me right back to what I posted earlier:

Jauthur, what's the problem with all this happening simultaneously? We can't know the mind of God. He tells us so Himself. So how are we to know that it must happen according to one veiw or the other?

and my personal position that it doesn't matter in what order God does things, if we do what we are supposed to do (believe on the Lord Jesus Christ), He will do what He said He would do. Some folk make things way more complicated than they need be.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
menageriekeeper said:
I'm sorry Jarthur, I thought we were discussing the order in which God does things not the fact that He does do His will.
Indeed. Well that and "His determinate counsel".

The only verses you have posted pertinant to this:
Not sure why you say this. What is at hand is, who determines what will be. Therefore by showing God is in control of all things, it helps build the point. I have yet to see a verse showing man is in control.

If I have a plane and I say.."Get or the plane and tell me where you want to go.

After the person gets on the plane and he then tells me he wants to go to Rome.

Who in this story determines the city we go to? Is it me or the person that picks the city?

If I'm a man of my word, and I meant what I said from the beginning, we will then fly to Rome based on what the other man determines. Right?





which quite leads me right back to what I posted earlier:

Jauthur, what's the problem with all this happening simultaneously? We can't know the mind of God. He tells us so Himself. So how are we to know that it must happen according to one veiw or the other?
I understand what you are saying and again this works well with Calvinism.

But what does not work looking ahead in time to find out what man does.

and my personal position that it doesn't matter in what order God does things, if we do what we are supposed to do (believe on the Lord Jesus Christ), He will do what He said He would do. Some folk make things way more complicated than they need be.

The order was ask for, to show the weakness in man centered doctrine. If one view can be supported by the Bible and the other cannot, which would you say is right?
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter


  • The determinist view which is set against libertarian free will would consider free will an illusion.

  • Can an individual without volition can not be held morally responsible for his choices?

  • If God has determined all future and past events what alternative does the determinist have other than to account evil to God?

  • The determinists imply that an omnipotent divinity asserts its power over an individual’s will and choices and thereby must logically conclude that power being held accountable for the individual’s actions.

  • How can one be punished for involuntary actions?

  • Does God glory over forcing people to love Him?

  • I’ve been noticing a lot of determinism on this board lately, but rather think of this theological assertion as an attempt at turning God’s creatures into
    8.gif
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Benjamin said:


  • The determinist view which is set against libertarian free will would consider free will an illusion.

  • Can an individual without volition can not be held morally responsible for his choices?

  • If God has determined all future and past events what alternative does the determinist have other than to account evil to God?

  • The determinists imply that an omnipotent divinity asserts its power over an individual’s will and choices and thereby must logically conclude that power being held accountable for the individual’s actions.

  • How can one be punished for involuntary actions?

  • Does God glory over forcing people to love Him?

  • I’ve been noticing a lot of determinism on this board lately, but rather think of this theological assertion as an attempt at turning God’s creatures into
    8.gif

You have showed a poor understanding of Calvinism. Also, the robot...wow that is a new one. :BangHead:

Why can non-Calvinist not see God in full control and man held responsible? To me this is so clear it will fall in your lap if you let it. But because you do not understand it, you side with man and his will, which takes us back to the garden for you cannot stand the robot idea.

Some day, I want to play this robot idea all the way to the end. I have never done this before, but I feel even if it means we are robots, this is better then being left to our own wills in sin. We need to take this up someday.

That said, it still carries no wait to say this is the only thing that will work. You exercise more control over your kids then you will allow God over mankind.

As it turns out man does not need to be given such power, for it is God that clearly is in control of all things. However, this does not limit man to a robot. I know for one you have been shown this more then once.

And still we have no verses. :)
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jarthur001 said:
Hello Webbie,

Its amazing that I see no verse from freewillers. I have backed my claims.

Maybe you would like to help them out. :)
Thanks, but I think I will keep from telling God how to be God. Feel free to tell Him how His order needs to be. I'm glad you have it all figured out.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
Thanks, but I think I will keep from telling God how to be God. Feel free to tell Him how His order needs to be. I'm glad you have it all figured out.

In other words you have no verse. That is what I thought.....but that's cool

Should I post more? :)
 
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