His determinate counsel

You want me to supply a verse telling how God needs to be God? I'll pass.

 

Well then, let me post a few for ya that are leading my list of the top 50 that I am preparing to place in a spiral 3x5 notebook to memorize and meditate on...

(Gen 12:3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

(Jos 24:15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

(Eze 18:30) Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

(Eze 18:31) Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

(Eze 18:32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

(Jer 17:10) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

(1Ch 28:9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

(Pro 1:24) Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

(Pro 1:25) But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

(Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

(Isa 1:18) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(Isa 1:19) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

(Isa 1:20) But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


(Mat 23:37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(Joh 1:7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

(Joh 1:19) And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

(Joh 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

(Joh 5:25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

(Rom 10:8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Rom 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

(Rom 10:18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

(Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

(Gal 2:21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That clearly shows then that those Galatian teachers who teach salvation by the law do frustrate the grace of God. Grace is not irresistible.


Oops they wouldn't fit in one post...imagine that!

 

(Php 4:5) Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;

(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(1Ti 2:7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

(Tit 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

(1Ti 4:10) For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

(Heb 2:9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

(Heb 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

(Jas 1:5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

(Jas 4:8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

(Jas 4:9) Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

(Jas 4:10) Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(1Jn 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

(Tit 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

So you do not equate free-will to libertarian free will?
In most of your post and how you set your arguments it can be easly assumed. If I was wrong about that I appologize. But that peice was also speaking to those who in this same thread began bring it up as well.

 

Please explain what you mean.
Does He draw out everything point by point in His mind meaning there are never any other variable possiblies and once He has mapped it all out, He decrees? (I'm not real sure I get your meaning)
OR
Is it more in line with Russell's statement:

OR
Are you both saying the same things, But I am just not seeing it?

Incorrect, and you have been told this time and time again. SO, I will tell you ONE MORE TIME (maybe you will listen).
God DOES NOT look into the future to find out what will happen.
God decrees in conjuction with all that He knows. Beyond that is PURE untainted human intellect trying to pressume it can grasp the mind of God and the fulness thereof.

Neither do I. But of course you STILL missed the point of my earlier post:

If you will kindly take note I not once said God does not control all things but that no man know what God actaully knows because we know how God actually thinks.

Who has EVER stated He didn't.
The verses you gave :laugh:
They spoke of NOTHING I that I actaully I brought up, which was:

SO it had NOTHING to do with God being in control but that you have absolutely NO BIBLICAL support for your order of decrees nor why or how God determinded them in or for the manner in which they were decided upon.

You haven't given ONE SINGLE VERSE which speaks to the order of Gods decrees nor did you give verses that tell us the 'why' God knows nor even the HOW God knew regarding the fullness of WHAT He knows.

You gave NO VERSES. All you gave were verse that state God is in control. And on that we do not disagree.

Of course it does but your view has no biblical support from where the bible stands.

Ok.

Knowledge and decree used in conjuction.

Decree and knowledged used in conjuction.

Knowledge and decree/elect used in conjunction.

 

He did, but He was out of cards at that time. :laugh:

First the ONLY translation I have found to translate 'wind', 'Spirit' is Youngs, and though I can see why he would, I do not agree that is a good translation of it.

Another thing; Did I state the wind was not respresentive of the Spirits work. I know I didn't state it specifically but I said that just as the world only knows the presence of the wind but nothing more, so it is with those who are saved (or indwelt by the Spirit of God). What I disagreed with you on was what you stated it the verse means here:

I see you have changed your meaning, where as before 'wind' meant the Holy Spirit, and NOW 'wind' means 'wind' but is illistrating a spiritual event. I agree with the later but it is the last part of your quote with I disagreed with and stated you gave the worst rendering of the passage I have seen from you. THAT is not what the passage refers to since we see in that last part of scripture - "so is everyone who IS born of the Spirit' refering to the wind.
Also those you quoted didn't say that last part in your quote so apparently they do not agree with that either. I DO agree no one knows where and the when the Spirit of God will move upon man but THIS verse isn't speaking of us "not knowing who will be 'born again' NEXT".

 

Here's the best I can explain it --- when YOU plan to build something, you have a mental image of it, right? Conceptually, you think about how all the part will work. In our cases, we don't always get it right though.

But God sees at this stage what His creation will do in minute detail. And this is where the "decrees" come in -- they (floods, language, Christ, etc.) bring things back into conformance with the plan. IOW, the ordance isn't complete until these have been included.

skypair

 

But the comparison of the wind is not to the Spirit but to every person (which is the subject of the comparision) born of the Spirit (the criteria which desigates the subject). I do think however that it 'could be argued' the text implies via surrounding context that BOTH the Spirit and the believe are like the wind to the World. But you are quite right, it doesn't really matter toward this discussion the thread.

I think I agree. :thumbs:

 

Again, and again, and again. NNE DISAGREES.

Arena of Play?? Does God now decree before time and also during time now?? - You lost me here.
From what I understand of your above it appears you contend that God decreed in conjunction with His foreknowledge of events. Cool

No you sound like a free-willer since this is all they say. God gave them the freedom of choice (regarding that which He gave them to choose), and the ability/responsibility to choose what they would do with the Truths God gave them.

This is the last time I tell you this. STOP taking that and twisting it beyond its intended meaning. I have told you what it means and to persist misrepresenting it and me constitutes you purposely and wilfully lieing and will not be tolerated.

I have not changed my view regarding my statement at all since it deals with the fixation IN TIME of His love (salvation) as being contengent upon those who will believe His truth given them via grace. There are numerous scriptures with declare God giving the choice and his decision will bring either the blessing or cursing of God like - "harden not your hearts as in the days of provocation", "save yourselves from this froward and perverse generation", and "Choose you this day", and whosoever will take freely from the water" "be reconsiled to God" and many many others. Man will not be saved unless and until he believes and if he doesn't it is at THAT MOMENT God damns him for not believing the truth.

And you WILL NOTE I stated that determing (which was clarified for you specifically in another post in the other thread) to be specifically referencing mans choice or decision to believe whereby God love is fixated upon him (also known as sealed unto the day of redemption). It is NOT that God obeys mans but that God outside of time already knew who would believe in conjuction with His drawing, yet IN TIME it was manifested when they believed. We KNOW their salvation could NOT COME UNTIL THEY BELEIVED and was NOT YET their UNTIL they believed. And so you see God elected them in accordance with His Foreknowledge, as says the Holy Writ.

Wrong, but it is the only way you can see it because you are stuck trying prove something that isn't even in scripture.
1st. You can not prove scripturally that God did not determine mankind is not to have a choice in which he is able to respond in either a possitive/negitive way as God reveals them.
2nd. You can not prove scripturally that you know the how and why God decreed.
3rd. You can not prove scripturally any order of decrees which God set forth. (He could have made them up at random, beginning at the middle and working outward )
4th. You can not prove scripturally that our election which is in accordance with Gods foreknowledge did not involve His knowing those who would be of faith.
5th. You can not prove scripturally you believe regarding how God thinks and knows exactly what He knows.

But that is for starters. Feel free to show me those scriptures which prove scripturally any of the 5 above.

 

So those God forknew would NOT believe never had a chance to believe because of God's perfect foreknowledge. Their fate was that they didn't believe, and God foresaw it. Fatalism

What the Calvinist believe is that foreknowledge is Foreloving. God foreloved those whom He chose (not fatalism) and through His Divine Providence, He regenerated them and they believe. (not fatalism). Foresight is mere fatalism. Forknowledge is like when Adam knew Eve. It is intimate, and it is providential, and it is not mere fate.

 

So how is the fate of the reprobate not fatalistic? Fatalism states that all events are predetermined and unalterable. The reprobate fall into this camp.

 

Fatalism is where simple fate determines the outcome. God's providence is not simple fate..... but God causing all things to happen for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.