His determinate counsel

[webdog]

In other words you have no verse. That is what I thought.

Should I post more?

You want me to supply a verse telling how God needs to be God? I'll pass.

 

[Benjamin]

And still we have no verses.

Well then, let me post a few for ya that are leading my list of the top 50 that I am preparing to place in a spiral 3x5 notebook to memorize and meditate on...

(Gen 12:3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

(Jos 24:15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

(Eze 18:30) Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

(Eze 18:31) Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

(Eze 18:32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

(Jer 17:10) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

(1Ch 28:9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

(Pro 1:24) Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

(Pro 1:25) But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

(Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

(Isa 1:18) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(Isa 1:19) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

(Isa 1:20) But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


(Mat 23:37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(Joh 1:7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

(Joh 1:19) And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

(Joh 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

(Joh 5:25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

(Rom 10:8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Rom 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

(Rom 10:18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

(Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

(Gal 2:21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That clearly shows then that those Galatian teachers who teach salvation by the law do frustrate the grace of God. Grace is not irresistible.


Oops they wouldn't fit in one post...imagine that!

 

[Benjamin]

(Php 4:5) Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;

(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(1Ti 2:7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

(Tit 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

(1Ti 4:10) For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

(Heb 2:9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

(Heb 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

(Jas 1:5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

(Jas 4:8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

(Jas 4:9) Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

(Jas 4:10) Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(1Jn 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

(Tit 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Jarthur001]

Well then, let me post a few for ya that are leading my list of the top 50 that I am preparing to place in a spiral 3x5 notebook to memorize and meditate on...

Thanks for your input. Now lets see what you may have overlooked. Notice who is calling the shots. Notice who makes the decree. Who is in control?

(Gen 12:3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed

.
I here is GOD. He is doing the blessing

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I here is God. It is He that calls from heaven. Notice it is God that places life and death before them. And notice the choice was given to the Jews only in this passage. How about those apples?

How am I doing so far?

(Eze 18:30) Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.


(Eze 18:31) Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
This is a decree from God. Who will judge? God will. Who will make the new spirit?

Eze 18:32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I here is God. He is judge. He is calling the shots. In verse 32...the death of him that dieth...I'll deal with later.

(Jer 17:10) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Another decree from God. Who searches the heart? God??

(1Ch 28:9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Who searches the hearts? GOD

(

Pro 1:24) Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

God did.

(Pro 1:25) But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Gods counsel. Gods reproof.

(Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

This is another one I need to address later. It has to do with how we come to understand.

(Isa 1:18) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


(Isa 1:19) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:


(Isa 1:20) But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

?? not sure your point on this one. But notice who is calling them to reason? Is it not God in control? And...who is He calling? I just studied this book. LOVE IT. The underline is a decree by God.

(Mat 23:37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I see no man made decree. I see no God learning from man. I see no point.

(Joh 1:7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Just using the one verse you posted and not the others like in John 1.....
we still see no where that Man is controlling. Yet...if you look at the full passage you will see GOD IN FULL CONTROL.

(Joh 1:19) And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

ok...??

(J

oh 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The command ....I SAY UNTO YOU....this is a decree from God. Who has the power to pass someone from death unto life? God. Now....all of these verse so far are call to salvation. So...who comes? No one comes.
Yet it is God that calleth and it is not based on what man does.

(Joh 5:25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is a long one too. man oh man...a real long one.

(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

again...I miss your point. Where is man in control? If you think it was man that plae Christ on the cross..I disagree. It was planned from the beginning by God.

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

???? still nothing here.

(Rom 10:8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

?

(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Is this a call to salvation? I think so. Now...who comes? Who seeks after God?

(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Very good.

(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Hold on. You said these were your TOP VERSES?

(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And who calls?

(Rom 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

(Rom 10:18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

I'll be glad to talk about this whole chapter

(Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Great verse. Not sure your point.

(Gal 2:21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

when will you post the ones that help your view?

That clearly shows then that those Galatian teachers who teach salvation by the law do frustrate the grace of God. Grace is not irresistible.

Well....irresistible grace is another subject. We were talkng about Gods decrees.
But..I disagree with you still.

Next....

 

[Jarthur001]

(Php 4:5) Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;

(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(1Ti 2:7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

(Tit 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

(1Ti 4:10) For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

(Heb 2:9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

(Heb 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

(Jas 1:5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

(Jas 4:8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

(Jas 4:9) Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

(Jas 4:10) Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(1Jn 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

(Tit 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I'll look at these tomorrow. I'm going to bed now.

Mean time...would you care to address my verses and show where I was wrong in thinking God controls the world?

 

[Jarthur001]

You want me to supply a verse telling how God needs to be God? I'll pass.

I said if you do not have a verse to back your view...that is ok. No big deal.

 

[Allan]

No need to say I'm sorry, but I'm sure you cannot show why I claimed you were Libertarian. I'm sure of it.

So you do not equate free-will to libertarian free will?
In most of your post and how you set your arguments it can be easly assumed. If I was wrong about that I appologize. But that peice was also speaking to those who in this same thread began bring it up as well.

 

[Allan]

tis so Allan.

It pretty easy,

My view..

1) God decrees, therefore He knows.
2) it happens.

Please explain what you mean.
Does He draw out everything point by point in His mind meaning there are never any other variable possiblies and once He has mapped it all out, He decrees? (I'm not real sure I get your meaning)
OR
Is it more in line with Russell's statement:

I think you misunderstand the Calvinist position.
God knows "whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions", so he doesn't know something based on his decreeing it, since most of what may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions won't actually come to pass. And if it doesn't come to pass, then God didn't decree it.

Of course this knowledge God has of things that don't come to pass but would come to pass upon supposed conditions can't come from foresight either, since God doesn't foresee as future events things that won't come to pass. His knows these things because he thinks them.

OR
Are you both saying the same things, But I am just not seeing it?

You view..
1) God looks and finds out what will be,
2) God then decrees based on what He sees.
3) it happens.

Incorrect, and you have been told this time and time again. SO, I will tell you ONE MORE TIME (maybe you will listen).
God DOES NOT look into the future to find out what will happen.
God decrees in conjuction with all that He knows. Beyond that is PURE untainted human intellect trying to pressume it can grasp the mind of God and the fulness thereof.

As it turns out i got your point, and you are wrong. I have no problem for God controls all things....and that is the point.

Neither do I. But of course you STILL missed the point of my earlier post:

Now here is the problem James with both yours and my view. We do not know what God actually knows because we don't know how God actaully thinks. So much of your view is based upon pure conjecture, which sadly is the basis of a large portion of your theology.

If you will kindly take note I not once said God does not control all things but that no man know what God actaully knows because we know how God actually thinks.

You mean other then the verse I already gave?
Face it Allan, God controls all things

Who has EVER stated He didn't.
The verses you gave :laugh:
They spoke of NOTHING I that I actaully I brought up, which was:

You have absolutely NO biblical support for your order of decrees and why God determined them to be in that order IF He determined any order at all. This is pure speculation AT BEST.

You nor I haven't a biblical clue as to why God decreed ANY of His decrees (other than it pleased Him to do so in accordance to His purpose and plan - and no disagree with that - or should not at least ) or that we even know half of them. Not only do we not know the 'why' but the HOW God determined or KNEW regarding the fullness of WHAT He knows. Yet a large portion of your theology is based upon this 'pure speculation' as though it is the gospels own truth. Without this portion much of your view becomes baseless, not all but much of it looses credence.

SO it had NOTHING to do with God being in control but that you have absolutely NO BIBLICAL support for your order of decrees nor why or how God determinded them in or for the manner in which they were decided upon.

Speak for yourself. I have the Bible and have posted verse to back my view. This will be the 3rd thread this week, where you pass over the verse and spread your logic.

You haven't given ONE SINGLE VERSE which speaks to the order of Gods decrees nor did you give verses that tell us the 'why' God knows nor even the HOW God knew regarding the fullness of WHAT He knows.

You gave NO VERSES. All you gave were verse that state God is in control. And on that we do not disagree.

Say as many times as you wish. Still ...the Bible stands.

Of course it does but your view has no biblical support from where the bible stands.

I have verse. You have not shown any.

Ok.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] ...

Knowledge and decree used in conjuction.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God...

Decree and knowledged used in conjuction.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, ...

Knowledge and decree/elect used in conjunction.

 

[Allan]

Nic was asking how to be saved. Why did not Jesus tell nic to say the sinners prayer and sign a card? Its pretty clear what He said.

He did, but He was out of cards at that time. :laugh:

NIV
8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

NASB
8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

YOUNG
8the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

I could list more...they all say the same thing.

First the ONLY translation I have found to translate 'wind', 'Spirit' is Youngs, and though I can see why he would, I do not agree that is a good translation of it.

Another thing; Did I state the wind was not respresentive of the Spirits work. I know I didn't state it specifically but I said that just as the world only knows the presence of the wind but nothing more, so it is with those who are saved (or indwelt by the Spirit of God). What I disagreed with you on was what you stated it the verse means here:

Man is born again just as the wind blows. (John 3) This means we do not know who will be born again next.

I see you have changed your meaning, where as before 'wind' meant the Holy Spirit, and NOW 'wind' means 'wind' but is illistrating a spiritual event. I agree with the later but it is the last part of your quote with I disagreed with and stated you gave the worst rendering of the passage I have seen from you. THAT is not what the passage refers to since we see in that last part of scripture - "so is everyone who IS born of the Spirit' refering to the wind.
Also those you quoted didn't say that last part in your quote so apparently they do not agree with that either. I DO agree no one knows where and the when the Spirit of God will move upon man but THIS verse isn't speaking of us "not knowing who will be 'born again' NEXT".

 

[Jarthur001]

So you do not equate free-will to libertarian free will?
In most of your post and how you set your arguments it can be easly assumed. If I was wrong about that I appologize. But that peice was also speaking to those who in this same thread began bring it up as well.

Check me to see is I'm wrong. I make a post blasting the sillyness of Freewillism and backing my views with the Bible. At that momnet or shortly after, 90 % of the time you come and defend Freewillism as your own. I have never called you a freewiller. I have never used the phrase "libertarian free will".

If anything it is yourself calling yourself a freewiller by acting as if I post to you, when I say Freewillers believe..blah blah and you say...."we do not".

And as I said...no need to appologize.

 

[Jarthur001]

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] ...
Knowledge and decree used in conjuction.

Allan,

Its about time you posted this verse, I have been waiting on it.

Please give me the two Greek words from which this word is formed.

"foreknow"

 

[Jarthur001]

He did, but He was out of cards at that time. :laugh:

First the ONLY translation I have found to translate 'wind', 'Spirit' is Youngs, and though I can see why he would, I do not agree that is a good translation of it.

It is backed well in the Greek Allan. But I'm not going to take up this fight, for in the end it matters not. The context compares the two as the same. So even if the text says "spirit and rock" are the same and is viewed as the same.....it is what it is.

Another thing; Did I state the wind was not respresentive of the Spirits work. I know I didn't state it specifically but I said that just as the world only knows the presence of the wind but nothing more, so it is with those who are saved (or indwelt by the Spirit of God). What I disagreed with you on was what you stated it the verse means here:

Not sure you ever stated your view till now. Maybe you did. What you said was that my view was the worst twisting of Gods word you have ever seen....or something like that. I just went on to show you I'm not alone. BTW...I had not read others on this, till you asked. I went out to see if you were right, and found it easy to find others that agree. Now you claim you disagree...and that I am sure of.

I see you have changed your meaning, where as before 'wind' meant the Holy Spirit, and NOW 'wind' means 'wind' but is illistrating a spiritual event. I agree with the later but it is the last part of your quote with I disagreed with and stated you gave the worst rendering of the passage I have seen from you. THAT is not what the passage refers to since we see in that last part of scripture - "so is everyone who IS born of the Spirit' refering to the wind.

I changed in no way. You take it to one level and stop. I happen to believe it fullly. Because I do not state it fully each time does not mean I change. Why would I post support from others if I had changed?

Also those you quoted didn't say that last part in your quote so apparently they do not agree with that either. I DO agree no one knows where and the when the Spirit of God will move upon man but THIS verse isn't speaking of us "not knowing who will be 'born again' NEXT".

I'm not sure what you read. But those men were clear. If need be, reread their words and you will see. I think you need some coffee or something.

 

[skypair]

I as a Calvinist see it this way.

1) God decrees it.
2) It happens.

As I understand it, freewillers view it this way.

God decress based on what he knows will happen. Therefore the knowledge of what will happen, must exist, yet not have taken placed before the decree.

This is what I do not understand. If the decree of God comes after the knowledge of God, where is the power of the decree? In this view, it would seem to me that if the decree does not ever come from God it does not matter. For if God sees what will come about, nothing will change no matter what, or else God did not see what will come about. So if he bases His decree on what He knows will happen, why decree anything?

Here's the best I can explain it --- when YOU plan to build something, you have a mental image of it, right? Conceptually, you think about how all the part will work. In our cases, we don't always get it right though.

But God sees at this stage what His creation will do in minute detail. And this is where the "decrees" come in -- they (floods, language, Christ, etc.) bring things back into conformance with the plan. IOW, the ordance isn't complete until these have been included.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Please explain what you mean.
Does He draw out everything point by point in His mind meaning there are never any other variable possiblies and once He has mapped it all out, He decrees? (I'm not real sure I get your meaning)

Prov. 16:33. that "the lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD."

1 Kings 22...
Now a certain man drew his bow at random and struck the king of Israel in a joint of the armor. So he said to the driver of his chariot, "Turn around and take me out of the fight; for I am severely wounded."

It was merely accidental or a random event by this man, yet it was God that guided the arrow to strike the king of Israel rather than any other man. Nothing comes to pass, however random and uncertain it may seem to be, but what was decreed by God.

OR
Is it more in line with Russell's statement:

OR
Are you both saying the same things, But I am just not seeing it

?
You will need to ask Russell what she means. But it is my guess that she is speaking of the arena of play. God can and does decree in a arena of play as was seen on that long list of verses given by ben. Even in this case God knows full well the out come by the players in the arena. Case in point..Adam and the tree. God knew Adam would sin, when God placed the tree in the garden. The decree was give..."do not....and if you do...you will die". God knew Adam would take...and die.

Now this is the best part. This alone shows man is not a robot. It also shows God in full control. God controlled the arena and knew the outcome, and even counted on the outcome, but Adam made the choice to sin.

Incorrect, and you have been told this time and time again. SO, I will tell you ONE MORE TIME (maybe you will listen).
God DOES NOT look into the future to find out what will happen.
God decrees in conjuction with all that He knows. Beyond that is PURE untainted human intellect trying to pressume it can grasp the mind of God and the fulness thereof.

Thats cool...for you must no longer believe this line you are well knewn for.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1119881&postcount=44

"The fixation of His love is determinded by man acceptance of God and His truth, just as you have quoted from many verses and your right there are many more. But that determining was known to God from the outset and thus apart His purpose and plan that it might be to His good pleasure.

Now can you get it right this time?

We got it Allan...always have.
but you say you have now changed. We shall see.

Neither do I. But of course you STILL missed the point of my earlier post:

If you will kindly take note I not once said God does not control all things but that no man know what God actaully knows because we know how God actually thinks.

The fixation of His love is determinded by man
But..you said you changed.

You haven't given ONE SINGLE VERSE which speaks to the order of Gods decrees nor did you give verses that tell us the 'why' God knows nor even the HOW God knew regarding the fullness of WHAT He knows.

I can tell you need another verse.

7' Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.

8 'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.'"

You gave NO VERSES. All you gave were verse that state God is in control. And on that we do not disagree.

Allan, God is in control, and man is in control. If God bases his decrees on what man does, God is locked in to make sure what he sees, comes about. This places man in control, and not God.

 

[Jarthur001]

Here's the best I can explain it --- when YOU plan to build something, you have a mental image of it, right? Conceptually, you think about how all the part will work. In our cases, we don't always get it right though.

But God sees at this stage what His creation will do in minute detail. And this is where the "decrees" come in -- they (floods, language, Christ, etc.) bring things back into conformance with the plan. IOW, the ordance isn't complete until these have been included.

skypair

Thanks Skypair...

I knew I could count on you. At lease you don't try to hide what you believe.

Being that Skypair is one of the top freewillers on this site, I guess he just proved me right.

In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

It is backed well in the Greek Allan. But I'm not going to take up this fight, for in the end it matters not. The context compares the two as the same. So even if the text says "spirit and rock" are the same and is viewed as the same.....it is what it is.

But the comparison of the wind is not to the Spirit but to every person (which is the subject of the comparision) born of the Spirit (the criteria which desigates the subject). I do think however that it 'could be argued' the text implies via surrounding context that BOTH the Spirit and the believe are like the wind to the World. But you are quite right, it doesn't really matter toward this discussion the thread.

I think you need some coffee or something.

I think I agree. :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

Prov. 16:33. that "the lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD."

1 Kings 22...
Now a certain man drew his bow at random and struck the king of Israel in a joint of the armor. So he said to the driver of his chariot, "Turn around and take me out of the fight; for I am severely wounded."

It was merely accidental or a random event by this man, yet it was God that guided the arrow to strike the king of Israel rather than any other man. Nothing comes to pass, however random and uncertain it may seem to be, but what was decreed by God.

Again, and again, and again. NNE DISAGREES.

You will need to ask Russell what she means. But it is my guess that she is speaking of the arena of play. God can and does decree in a arena of play as was seen on that long list of verses given by ben. Even in this case God knows full well the out come by the players in the arena. Case in point..Adam and the tree. God knew Adam would sin, when God placed the tree in the garden. The decree was give..."do not....and if you do...you will die". God knew Adam would take...and die.

Arena of Play?? Does God now decree before time and also during time now?? - You lost me here.
From what I understand of your above it appears you contend that God decreed in conjunction with His foreknowledge of events. Cool

Now this is the best part. This alone shows man is not a robot. It also shows God in full control. God controlled the arena and knew the outcome, and even counted on the outcome, but Adam made the choice to sin.

No you sound like a free-willer since this is all they say. God gave them the freedom of choice (regarding that which He gave them to choose), and the ability/responsibility to choose what they would do with the Truths God gave them.

Thats cool...for you must no longer believe this line you are well knewn for.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1119881&postcount=44


We got it Allan...always have.
but you say you have now changed. We shall see.



The fixation of His love is determinded by man
But..you said you changed.

"The fixation of His love is determinded by man acceptance of God and His truth, just as you have quoted from many verses and your right there are many more. But that determining was known to God from the outset and thus apart His purpose and plan that it might be to His good pleasure.

This is the last time I tell you this. STOP taking that and twisting it beyond its intended meaning. I have told you what it means and to persist misrepresenting it and me constitutes you purposely and wilfully lieing and will not be tolerated.

I have not changed my view regarding my statement at all since it deals with the fixation IN TIME of His love (salvation) as being contengent upon those who will believe His truth given them via grace. There are numerous scriptures with declare God giving the choice and his decision will bring either the blessing or cursing of God like - "harden not your hearts as in the days of provocation", "save yourselves from this froward and perverse generation", and "Choose you this day", and whosoever will take freely from the water" "be reconsiled to God" and many many others. Man will not be saved unless and until he believes and if he doesn't it is at THAT MOMENT God damns him for not believing the truth.

And you WILL NOTE I stated that determing (which was clarified for you specifically in another post in the other thread) to be specifically referencing mans choice or decision to believe whereby God love is fixated upon him (also known as sealed unto the day of redemption). It is NOT that God obeys mans but that God outside of time already knew who would believe in conjuction with His drawing, yet IN TIME it was manifested when they believed. We KNOW their salvation could NOT COME UNTIL THEY BELEIVED and was NOT YET their UNTIL they believed. And so you see God elected them in accordance with His Foreknowledge, as says the Holy Writ.

Allan, God is in control, and man is in control. If God bases his decrees on what man does, God is locked in to make sure what he sees, comes about. This places man in control, and not God.

Wrong, but it is the only way you can see it because you are stuck trying prove something that isn't even in scripture.
1st. You can not prove scripturally that God did not determine mankind is not to have a choice in which he is able to respond in either a possitive/negitive way as God reveals them.
2nd. You can not prove scripturally that you know the how and why God decreed.
3rd. You can not prove scripturally any order of decrees which God set forth. (He could have made them up at random, beginning at the middle and working outward )
4th. You can not prove scripturally that our election which is in accordance with Gods foreknowledge did not involve His knowing those who would be of faith.
5th. You can not prove scripturally you believe regarding how God thinks and knows exactly what He knows.

But that is for starters. Feel free to show me those scriptures which prove scripturally any of the 5 above.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Again, and again, and again. NNE DISAGREES.

Arena of Play?? Does God now decree before time and also during time now?? - You lost me here.
From what I understand of your above it appears you contend that God decreed in conjunction with His foreknowledge of events. Cool


No you sound like a free-willer since this is all they say. God gave them the freedom of choice (regarding that which He gave them to choose), and the ability/responsibility to choose what they would do with the Truths God gave them.


This is the last time I tell you this. STOP taking that and twisting it beyond its intended meaning. I have told you what it means and to persist misrepresenting it and me constitutes you purposely and wilfully lieing and will not be tolerated.

I have not changed my view regarding my statement at all since it deals with the fixation IN TIME of His love (salvation) as being contengent upon those who will believe His truth given them via grace. There are numerous scriptures with declare God giving the choice and his decision will bring either the blessing or cursing of God like - "harden not your hearts as in the days of provocation", "save yourselves from this froward and perverse generation", and "Choose you this day", and whosoever will take freely from the water" "be reconsiled to God" and many many others. Man will not be saved unless and until he believes and if he doesn't it is at THAT MOMENT God damns him for not believing the truth.

And you WILL NOTE I stated that determing (which was clarified for you specifically in another post in the other thread) to be specifically referencing mans choice or decision to believe whereby God love is fixated upon him (also known as sealed unto the day of redemption). It is NOT that God obeys mans but that God outside of time already knew who would believe in conjuction with His drawing, yet IN TIME it was manifested when they believed. We KNOW their salvation could NOT COME UNTIL THEY BELEIVED and was NOT YET their UNTIL they believed. And so you see God elected them in accordance with His Foreknowledge, as says the Holy Writ.

Wrong, but it is the only way you can see it because you are stuck trying prove something that isn't even in scripture.
1st. You can not prove scripturally that God did not determine mankind is not to have a choice in which he is able to respond in either a possitive/negitive way as God reveals them.
2nd. You can not prove scripturally that you know the how and why God decreed.
3rd. You can not prove scripturally any order of decrees which God set forth. (He could have made them up at random, beginning at the middle and working outward )
4th. You can not prove scripturally that our election which is in accordance with Gods foreknowledge did not involve His knowing those who would be of faith.
5th. You can not prove scripturally you believe regarding how God thinks and knows exactly what He knows.

But that is for starters. Feel free to show me those scriptures which prove scripturally any of the 5 above.

So those God forknew would NOT believe never had a chance to believe because of God's perfect foreknowledge. Their fate was that they didn't believe, and God foresaw it. Fatalism

What the Calvinist believe is that foreknowledge is Foreloving. God foreloved those whom He chose (not fatalism) and through His Divine Providence, He regenerated them and they believe. (not fatalism). Foresight is mere fatalism. Forknowledge is like when Adam knew Eve. It is intimate, and it is providential, and it is not mere fate.

 

[webdog]

So how is the fate of the reprobate not fatalistic? Fatalism states that all events are predetermined and unalterable. The reprobate fall into this camp.

 

[reformedbeliever]

So how is the fate of the reprobate not fatalistic? Fatalism states that all events are predetermined and unalterable. The reprobate fall into this camp.

Fatalism is where simple fate determines the outcome. God's providence is not simple fate..... but God causing all things to happen for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.