His determinate counsel

Didn't you leave off part of the scripture? "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose." Romans 8:28

We know you have a problem with Scripture sky........ as you have shown us many times.

 

Your error is in NOT looking at God's perspective... and of course your open theistic thinking.

 

Do you take drugs and fly?

 

Are you Supra Jarthur? I'm not Supra, but I definately lean in that direction. It probably wouldn't take much convincing...

 

I'm supra. It's the only way anything makes sense to me.

 

In a way whether infra or even sub, we are all supra, when you really think about it.

 

My, I don't feel very supra. I just turned 51.

 

Nice spin, RB. :thumbs:

 

Ummm.... Brother, you have it fatalsim all messed up.
If there is choice involed fatalism does not exist. Just because God knows everyone who will and will not (anything) once He gives them a choice does not constitute that as being fate, since fate was something the gods decided that man will or will not do and he was bound in time to do their will. Whether be god-fearing or evil, it was their fate to fulfill the will of gods, they had no choice.

Fate is something historically that the gods (Greek as well as others) had determined and man has no say in the matter but men were depicted as a helpless creature borne along by destiny. Thus you have what was called or was said to be 'your fate'. You were 'doomed' so to speak to do what ever it was the gods had predetermined you to do not what they knew you would do.

You can not have fatalism, where choice is involved, only non-choice. Thus you will ONLY have fatalism where man has no choice.

Wiki 'Fate';

The only problem you have with that, is the scripture does not state nor read fore-'loving' but fore-'knowing'. This word in the Greek is specific of knowledge and can imply intimacy (love). There are words in the Greek for love and loving but they are not used for this word. Yet if the content of passage does invoke the implication of love it is not to seperated from it's foremost meaning of knowledge.

Again, it is not foreloved but foreknew. Actaully that is exactly fatalism since those whom He chose have no choice in the matter and neither do they whom He did not choose.

Again, no choice IS fatalism.

No one is speaking of foresight.

Absolutely incorrect. Forknoweldge IS NOT the same as Adam knowing Eve, because then you have problem with this verse:

First thing though - you have the Jews 'knowing' Christ in an intimate and loving way as they delivered Him up to be crusified. That is of course if we hold to your view.
Second - you have God intimately loving Christ by placing Him into the hands of wicked men to crusify Him.

The problem is not that knowledge does not imply love because it CAN though does not always do so, but that you ignore it's intended meaning which can include the love aspect as well.

 

Foreknow - proginosko
1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow
....a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate

As in Rom 8:29, 2 Peter 3:17

From the two words:
1. pro:
1) before

2. ginōskō:
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of, perceive, feel
....a) to become known

2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
....a) to understand
....b) to know

3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman

4) to become acquainted with, to know

 

It did.

First James, I have not denied saying it, but have been against the way you present what I was saying and not that I said it. But what I HAVE denied saying is that my usage of 'determined' is being the same as God's. My usage was more in line with being the action of man believing, granted the wording could have been different and in fact I have continued to insist it is more accurately portrayed as choosing.

Land, Seas, and Plants

 

See, web, npetreely can lay the blame to God. Because God is the All-sovereign Omnipotent One, His creatures couldn't possibly be responsible.

skypair

 

Because it turns out good doesn't mean that fatalism isn't operative. Fatalism only means that WE have no control of influence over our lives. We think we do -- the Bible would make it out that we do (i.e. obey the law and be blessed). But Calvinist fatalism says that, too, was already predestined and not within your power to change.

Here's an illustration -- tell me what is wrong with this: As with "election," so it is with your Calvinism. The Calvinist had no choice but to be a Calvinist yet he will bear full responsibility at the Bema for either rightly or wrongly teaching and practicing Calvinism.

See, that's fatalism for you. If Calvinism is wrong, God still made you do it and made you responsible for your error.

skypair

 

See, thats where you do not (or more likely misrepresent or being dishonest) know what Calvinism teaches. Men make choices. God does not make man choose, he chooses according to his nature and the circumstances of his environment. God's providence causes the circumstances, or allows them. Sometimes God acts directly to cause His plan to go according to His perfect will, sometimes He indirectly causes.

 

Allan, scholars are divided upon whether the foreknowledge is forloving or forseeing. You have your opinion, I have mine and many other scholars opinion.

Allan, which Calvinist do you know who says we do not have a choice? The fatalism I was talking about is when men make choices to not believe.... and God knows this in His *perfect* knowledge, then they really can not NOT believe. Think about it. They will always act in accordance with God's perfect decreed will. When it comes to the point of decision, they make their choice (not in a libertarian way) and thier choice will always be in a manner that is consistent with God's perfect or decreed will.

 

Can you choose to not die of a heart attack? If a clot goes to your brain, or a blood vessel decides to burst, can you choose to not die? God is in control Allan.