His determinate counsel

[reformedbeliever]

You have your own unique definition of "fatalism," RB. :tonofbricks:

If God causes all things to happen, that is fatalistic thinking. You are saying that nothing we do avails and from our perspective, that is fatalistic. God may think it is wonderful but to us, there is NO HOPE unless we are lucky enough to be God's "fair haired boys."

Your error is in looking at the definition from God's perspective and the ones to whom that negative situation applies -- US.

skypair

Didn't you leave off part of the scripture? "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose." Romans 8:28

We know you have a problem with Scripture sky........ as you have shown us many times.

 

[reformedbeliever]

You have your own unique definition of "fatalism," RB. :tonofbricks:

If God causes all things to happen, that is fatalistic thinking. You are saying that nothing we do avails and from our perspective, that is fatalistic. God may think it is wonderful but to us, there is NO HOPE unless we are lucky enough to be God's "fair haired boys."

Your error is in looking at the definition from God's perspective and the ones to whom that negative situation applies -- US.

skypair

Your error is in NOT looking at God's perspective... and of course your open theistic thinking.

 

[reformedbeliever]

All you are saying is that it isn't fate if you aren't condemned, RB. Fatalism is fatalism for ALL, not just for some. So tell me --- if you are "condemned" to whatever God's fate is for you, how do you influence God to give you a different outcome?

skypair

Do you take drugs and fly?

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan,

Its about time you posted this verse, I have been waiting on it.

Please give me the two Greek words from which this word is formed.

"foreknow"

Maybe this was overlooked....

maybe I should bump it to the top.

 

[Jarthur001]

Do you take drugs and fly?

Now why would you ask if he flies??

 

[Jarthur001]

Arena of Play?? Does God now decree before time and also during time now?? - You lost me here.
From what I understand of your above it appears you contend that God decreed in conjunction with His foreknowledge of events. Cool

I knew that one would spin your head.

"Arena of Play" is my phrase. You can use it if you want, but maybe you should know what I'm talking about 1st. Most would call this "the full spectrum of Gods sovereignty".

I’ll get to it later. I see others were taken back as well.

No you sound like a free-willer since this is all they say. God gave them the freedom of choice (regarding that which He gave them to choose), and the ability/responsibility to choose what they would do with the Truths God gave them.

Hush your mouth!! Freewiller? Well I never!!
Not at all Allan. Responsibility is always there. Freewill is never there.

[

B]This is the last time I tell you this. STOP taking that and twisting it beyond its intended meaning. I have told you what it means and to persist misrepresenting it and me constitutes you purposely and wilfully lieing and will not be tolerated. [/B]

Allan, what are you so upset about? What I have done is post your words. I do not leave out any of your words. I post the whole statement. Cut and paste...I did. How can I twist when i add nothing other then a underline. I only add the underline because you deny saying it for 3 post.

Now I understand you are mad. This is very clear. Yet I do not understand why. So lets talk this through.

I have not changed my view regarding my statement at all since it deals with the fixation IN TIME of His love (salvation) as being contengent upon those who will believe His truth given them via grace.

The time game does not matter Allan. Lets play this game and see why.

This is your statement

"The fixation of His love is determinded by man acceptance of God and His truth, just as you have quoted from many verses and your right there are many more. But that determining was known to God from the outset and thus apart His purpose and plan that it might be to His good pleasure."

Lets step away from man and maybe you will see my point. Then again...maybe not.

I will skip the rest of this post by you, for we really need to clear this up.

Stick with me please.

What did God make on the 3rd day of creation?

 

[Jarthur001]

So those God forknew would NOT believe never had a chance to believe because of God's perfect foreknowledge. Their fate was that they didn't believe, and God foresaw it. Fatalism

What the Calvinist believe is that foreknowledge is Foreloving. God foreloved those whom He chose (not fatalism) and through His Divine Providence, He regenerated them and they believe. (not fatalism). Foresight is mere fatalism. Forknowledge is like when Adam knew Eve. It is intimate, and it is providential, and it is not mere fate.

This is what I have tried to prove before. This view shared by many on here of God and Foreknowing, is nothing short of supralapsarianism.

The reason why....is they stop to think about what comes next in the verse and the fact that God knows about every body.

 

[reformedbeliever]

This is what I have tried to prove before. This view shared by many on here of God and Foreknowing, is nothing short of supralapsarianism.

The reason why....is they stop to think about what comes next in the verse and the fact that God knows about every body.

Are you Supra Jarthur? I'm not Supra, but I definately lean in that direction. It probably wouldn't take much convincing...

 

[npetreley]

I'm supra. It's the only way anything makes sense to me.

 

[TCGreek]

I'm supra. It's the only way anything makes sense to me.

In a way whether infra or even sub, we are all supra, when you really think about it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

In a way whether infra or even sub, we are all supra, when you really think about it.

My, I don't feel very supra. I just turned 51.

 

[TCGreek]

My, I don't feel very supra. I just turned 51.

Nice spin, RB. :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

So those God forknew would NOT believe never had a chance to believe because of God's perfect foreknowledge. Their fate was that they didn't believe, and God foresaw it. Fatalism

Ummm.... Brother, you have it fatalsim all messed up.
If there is choice involed fatalism does not exist. Just because God knows everyone who will and will not (anything) once He gives them a choice does not constitute that as being fate, since fate was something the gods decided that man will or will not do and he was bound in time to do their will. Whether be god-fearing or evil, it was their fate to fulfill the will of gods, they had no choice.

Fate is something historically that the gods (Greek as well as others) had determined and man has no say in the matter but men were depicted as a helpless creature borne along by destiny. Thus you have what was called or was said to be 'your fate'. You were 'doomed' so to speak to do what ever it was the gods had predetermined you to do not what they knew you would do.

You can not have fatalism, where choice is involved, only non-choice. Thus you will ONLY have fatalism where man has no choice.

In classical and Eureopean mythology, there are three goddessess dispensing fate known as Moirae in Greek mythology, Parcae in Roman mythology, and Norns in Norse mythology, who determinted the events of the world. Fate implies no choice, and ends with a death. Fate is an outcome determined by an outside agency acting upon a person or entity;

Wiki 'Fate';

[/B]What the Calvinist believe is that foreknowledge is Foreloving.

The only problem you have with that, is the scripture does not state nor read fore-'loving' but fore-'knowing'. This word in the Greek is specific of knowledge and can imply intimacy (love). There are words in the Greek for love and loving but they are not used for this word. Yet if the content of passage does invoke the implication of love it is not to seperated from it's foremost meaning of knowledge.

God foreloved those whom He chose (not fatalism)

Again, it is not foreloved but foreknew. Actaully that is exactly fatalism since those whom He chose have no choice in the matter and neither do they whom He did not choose.

and through His Divine Providence, He regenerated them and they believe. (not fatalism).

Again, no choice IS fatalism.

Foresight is mere fatalism.

No one is speaking of foresight.

Forknowledge is like when Adam knew Eve. It is intimate, and it is providential, and it is not mere fate.

Absolutely incorrect. Forknoweldge IS NOT the same as Adam knowing Eve, because then you have problem with this verse:

Act 2:22 ¶ Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

First thing though - you have the Jews 'knowing' Christ in an intimate and loving way as they delivered Him up to be crusified. That is of course if we hold to your view.
Second - you have God intimately loving Christ by placing Him into the hands of wicked men to crusify Him.

The problem is not that knowledge does not imply love because it CAN though does not always do so, but that you ignore it's intended meaning which can include the love aspect as well.

 

[Allan]

Originally Posted by Jarthur001
Allan,

Its about time you posted this verse, I have been waiting on it.

Please give me the two Greek words from which this word is formed.

"foreknow"

Foreknow - proginosko
1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow
....a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate

As in Rom 8:29, 2 Peter 3:17

From the two words:
1. pro:
1) before

2. ginōskō:
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of, perceive, feel
....a) to become known

2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
....a) to understand
....b) to know

3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman

4) to become acquainted with, to know

 

[Allan]

I knew that one would spin your head.

It did.

Allan, what are you so upset about? What I have done is post your words. I do not leave out any of your words. I post the whole statement. Cut and paste...I did. How can I twist when i add nothing other then a underline. I only add the underline because you deny saying it for 3 post.

First James, I have not denied saying it, but have been against the way you present what I was saying and not that I said it. But what I HAVE denied saying is that my usage of 'determined' is being the same as God's. My usage was more in line with being the action of man believing, granted the wording could have been different and in fact I have continued to insist it is more accurately portrayed as choosing.

What did God make on the 3rd day of creation?

Land, Seas, and Plants

 

[skypair]

Things aren't going according to plan? God screwed up?

See, web, npetreely can lay the blame to God. Because God is the All-sovereign Omnipotent One, His creatures couldn't possibly be responsible.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Didn't you leave off part of the scripture? "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose." Romans 8:28

We know you have a problem with Scripture sky........ as you have shown us many times.

Because it turns out good doesn't mean that fatalism isn't operative. Fatalism only means that WE have no control of influence over our lives. We think we do -- the Bible would make it out that we do (i.e. obey the law and be blessed). But Calvinist fatalism says that, too, was already predestined and not within your power to change.

Here's an illustration -- tell me what is wrong with this: As with "election," so it is with your Calvinism. The Calvinist had no choice but to be a Calvinist yet he will bear full responsibility at the Bema for either rightly or wrongly teaching and practicing Calvinism.

See, that's fatalism for you. If Calvinism is wrong, God still made you do it and made you responsible for your error.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Because it turns out good doesn't mean that fatalism isn't operative. Fatalism only means that WE have no control of influence over our lives. We think we do -- the Bible would make it out that we do (i.e. obey the law and be blessed). But Calvinist fatalism says that, too, was already predestined and not within your power to change.

Here's an illustration -- tell me what is wrong with this: As with "election," so it is with your Calvinism. The Calvinist had no choice but to be a Calvinist yet he will bear full responsibility at the Bema for either rightly or wrongly teaching and practicing Calvinism.

See, that's fatalism for you. If Calvinism is wrong, God still made you do it and made you responsible for your error.

skypair

See, thats where you do not (or more likely misrepresent or being dishonest) know what Calvinism teaches. Men make choices. God does not make man choose, he chooses according to his nature and the circumstances of his environment. God's providence causes the circumstances, or allows them. Sometimes God acts directly to cause His plan to go according to His perfect will, sometimes He indirectly causes.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Ummm.... Brother, you have it fatalsim all messed up.
If there is choice involed fatalism does not exist. Just because God knows everyone who will and will not (anything) once He gives them a choice does not constitute that as being fate, since fate was something the gods decided that man will or will not do and he was bound in time to do their will. Whether be god-fearing or evil, it was their fate to fulfill the will of gods, they had no choice.

Fate is something historically that the gods (Greek as well as others) had determined and man has no say in the matter but men were depicted as a helpless creature borne along by destiny. Thus you have what was called or was said to be 'your fate'. You were 'doomed' so to speak to do what ever it was the gods had predetermined you to do not what they knew you would do.

You can not have fatalism, where choice is involved, only non-choice. Thus you will ONLY have fatalism where man has no choice.

Wiki 'Fate';


The only problem you have with that, is the scripture does not state nor read fore-'loving' but fore-'knowing'. This word in the Greek is specific of knowledge and can imply intimacy (love). There are words in the Greek for love and loving but they are not used for this word. Yet if the content of passage does invoke the implication of love it is not to seperated from it's foremost meaning of knowledge.

Again, it is not foreloved but foreknew. Actaully that is exactly fatalism since those whom He chose have no choice in the matter and neither do they whom He did not choose.
Again, no choice IS fatalism.
No one is speaking of foresight.
Absolutely incorrect. Forknoweldge IS NOT the same as Adam knowing Eve, because then you have problem with this verse:

First thing though - you have the Jews 'knowing' Christ in an intimate and loving way as they delivered Him up to be crusified. That is of course if we hold to your view.
Second - you have God intimately loving Christ by placing Him into the hands of wicked men to crusify Him.

The problem is not that knowledge does not imply love because it CAN though does not always do so, but that you ignore it's intended meaning which can include the love aspect as well.

Allan, scholars are divided upon whether the foreknowledge is forloving or forseeing. You have your opinion, I have mine and many other scholars opinion.

Allan, which Calvinist do you know who says we do not have a choice? The fatalism I was talking about is when men make choices to not believe.... and God knows this in His *perfect* knowledge, then they really can not NOT believe. Think about it. They will always act in accordance with God's perfect decreed will. When it comes to the point of decision, they make their choice (not in a libertarian way) and thier choice will always be in a manner that is consistent with God's perfect or decreed will.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Ummm.... Brother, you have it fatalsim all messed up.
If there is choice involed fatalism does not exist. Just because God knows everyone who will and will not (anything) once He gives them a choice does not constitute that as being fate, since fate was something the gods decided that man will or will not do and he was bound in time to do their will. Whether be god-fearing or evil, it was their fate to fulfill the will of gods, they had no choice.

Fate is something historically that the gods (Greek as well as others) had determined and man has no say in the matter but men were depicted as a helpless creature borne along by destiny. Thus you have what was called or was said to be 'your fate'. You were 'doomed' so to speak to do what ever it was the gods had predetermined you to do not what they knew you would do.

You can not have fatalism, where choice is involved, only non-choice. Thus you will ONLY have fatalism where man has no choice.

Wiki 'Fate';


The only problem you have with that, is the scripture does not state nor read fore-'loving' but fore-'knowing'. This word in the Greek is specific of knowledge and can imply intimacy (love). There are words in the Greek for love and loving but they are not used for this word. Yet if the content of passage does invoke the implication of love it is not to seperated from it's foremost meaning of knowledge.

Again, it is not foreloved but foreknew. Actaully that is exactly fatalism since those whom He chose have no choice in the matter and neither do they whom He did not choose.
Again, no choice IS fatalism.
No one is speaking of foresight.
Absolutely incorrect. Forknoweldge IS NOT the same as Adam knowing Eve, because then you have problem with this verse:

First thing though - you have the Jews 'knowing' Christ in an intimate and loving way as they delivered Him up to be crusified. That is of course if we hold to your view.
Second - you have God intimately loving Christ by placing Him into the hands of wicked men to crusify Him.

The problem is not that knowledge does not imply love because it CAN though does not always do so, but that you ignore it's intended meaning which can include the love aspect as well.

Can you choose to not die of a heart attack? If a clot goes to your brain, or a blood vessel decides to burst, can you choose to not die? God is in control Allan.