His determinate counsel

[Amy.G]

If I remember correctly.... sky does not think God knows of an event or person until that event or person actually exists.

Isn't that open theism?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Isn't that open theism?

That is what i'd call it.

 

[npetreley]

I just call it weird wiggy mojo. That describes it well, IMO, and it bypasses all the theological arguments.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

And is it only the Calvinists who argue against him on this topic?
Or do the others show their dissent as well?

 

[skypair]

So according to what you wrote above:
1) God is informed then by something outside of Himself, not His own counsel or decree, or to use Alex's word, "mentality".

Yes. He did create us what we call "independent moral agents." Thus, His decrees awaited His foreknowledge of our choices.

2) His knowledge of what will happen is based on the creature and creaturely events.

Not totally. You are trying to distort what I said. He has a plan. It is not dependent on us. If we choose to go with Him, He is willing for us to join Him. But His "route" and His "destination" are in no way dependent on us. I don't know how you make it out that His decrees (such as "election") are made "blindly."

But you know what? Some pagan kings HAVE believed themselves to be "chosen" by God to justify why they were kings and others weren't. Heck, our Memphis mayor, Willie Herenton, has made that statement in his acceptance speech. That didn't mean it was true (as his horrendous record shows!). Are you SURE you are not doing the same?

I think that you will find that your statements will bring you into disagreement with even some of the non-Calvinists here.

Well, don't anyone be offended. But NO "King" makes decrees in a vacuum -- without any information. Well, maybe a precocious, petulant Calvinist "king" would. :laugh:

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

But you know what? Some pagan kings HAVE believed themselves to be "chosen" by God to justify why they were kings and others weren't. Heck, our Memphis mayor, Willie Herenton, has made that statement in his acceptance speech. That didn't mean it was true (as his horrendous record shows!). Are you SURE you are not doing the same?
skypair

Surely you don't deny election. Do you have a problem with the phrase "chosen by God"?
Election is all over the Bible.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Not totally. You are trying to distort what I said.

No, I'm not trying to distort what you said. There's no reason to assume malicious intent on my part. I'm trying to ascertain what you believe.

So how do these two statements work in your system?
1)

Thus, His decrees awaited His foreknowledge of our choices.

2)

He has a plan. It is not dependent on us.

 

[Amy.G]

You guys are way smarter than me. I can't explain how God knows what He knows, or how He does what He does, or why.

All I know for sure is, God has had a plan since before the creation of the world and it will come to pass. How He accomplishes that, I can't say. We were chosen. On what basis, I don't know, other than that's what God wanted. Who am I to question Him?

Ok, I just needed to get that off my chest. :laugh:

 

[skypair]

Surely you don't deny election. Do you have a problem with the phrase "chosen by God"?

I don't, Amy. But free willers have a difference definition of "election." To free willers, "election" is "ministry." You don't have a ministry/purpose in God's plan until you are saved, right? After we are saved, God has a "ministry" for us. "Election" does NOT mean "chosen for salvation."

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

I don't, Amy. But free willers have a difference definition of "election." To free willers, "election" is "ministry." You don't have a ministry/purpose in God's plan until you are saved, right? After we are saved, God has a "ministry" for us. "Election" does NOT mean "chosen for salvation."

skypair

2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus {and} with {it} eternal glory.

Tts 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1Pe 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God's} OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mar 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened {those} days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mar 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mar 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Luk 18:7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

New Testament (Greek)
G1588 eklektos ek-lek-to's elect, chosen
G1589 eklogē ek-lo-gā' election, chosen


Skypair, care to explain the difference between elect and chosen?

 

[npetreley]

2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Skypair, care to explain the difference between elect and chosen?

Maybe webdog can elaborate on the verse about being chosen to/for salvation, something God never does.... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[webdog]

...or maybe npetreley can quote the whole verse telling "how"

 

[npetreley]

...or maybe npetreley can quote the whole verse telling "how"

Sure! It would be my pleasure.

God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation

This is a fact. There is no condition here. It was decided from the beginning, before we were even born.

through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth

This is how God did it. He sanctified us by the Spirit (regeneration) which enabled our faith in the truth. This is described also in Titus 3:

he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

 

[skypair]

No, I'm not trying to distort what you said. There's no reason to assume malicious intent on my part. I'm trying to ascertain what you believe.

So how do these two statements work in your system?

Sorry about the "distortion" comment, but most people are against me here.

1) Rom 8:29 says foreknowledge, then predestination (or foreordination/decree) for BELEIVERS.

2) God's plan is this (IMO) --- His "Kingdom of God" was everything that He created but He existed alone, I AM. He created angels but when angels fell, He made earth the "quarantine zone" wherein He would prepare a people to company with Him in eternity.

But obviously He had to work out this one little corner of His kingdom in order to not be alone (like Adam). Adam's lonliness is just a picture of what God felt. Do you have any questions from here?

God has to create man as His perfect counterpart (as Eve was to Adam) --- and with a perfect 3 "dimensions" (body, soul, spirit). But on account of the fall, He must save man in 3 phases -- justification (Israel), sanctification (church and Israel), and, making them like Himself, glorification. THEN He can "renovate" the "quarantine zone" and bring the kingdom of God to it/earth as well. We call this the New Earth! That, as I understand it, is God's plan.

That would be His ultimate counsel. He is doing whatever He needs to fulfill Himelf in His children.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Sorry about the "distortion" comment, but most people are against me here.

1) Rom 8:29 says foreknowledge, then predestination (or foreordination/decree) for BELEIVERS.

Yes, but it says THOSE He foreknew, not THOSE ABOUT WHICH He foreknew. You want it to be the latter, but the text doesn't say what you want it to say. Your argument also falls apart when you try to explain away when Jesus says, "I never knew you".

 

[webdog]

God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation

This is a fact. There is no condition here. It was decided from the beginning, before we were even born.

Faith is not a condition for salvation?

through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth

This is how God did it. He sanctified us by the Spirit (regeneration) which enabled our faith in the truth. This is described also in Titus 3:

That text does not list regeneration prior to faith, nor as a requirement for faith. It lists it ALONGSIDE ("through sanctification by...AND faith..."

 

[Amy.G]

Doesn't sanctification mean to be set apart by God? To be holy?

So, if that is the correct definition then we can say:

We've been chosen for salvation since before anything was created.

We've been set aside (sanctified, made holy) for God by the Spirit.

Through faith.

2Th 2:13... because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

 

[skypair]

2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus {and} with {it} eternal glory.

Tts 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1Pe 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God's} OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mar 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened {those} days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mar 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mar 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Luk 18:7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

New Testament (Greek)
G1588 eklektos ek-lek-to's elect, chosen
G1589 eklogē ek-lo-gā' election, chosen


Skypair, care to explain the difference between elect and chosen?

Amy -- I appreciate you quoting scriptures as if I have never seen them and posting definitions as if they applied to salvation and not ministry. But it still all boils down to interpretation.

Did you notice that you just assume that "chosen" means "elect" in all those verses where the word is "chosen?"

What is interesting and what you probably didn't notice is that those uses of "elect" that you cited refer to ISRAEL. They are an "elect" people unto God's purposes! And I know that Calvinists play a lot of their theology off the notion that the church is "elect" just like Israel. They don't normally recognize dispensations is why.

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Sorry about the "distortion" comment, but most people are against me here.

1) Rom 8:29 says foreknowledge, then predestination (or foreordination/decree) for BELEIVERS.

2) God's plan is this (IMO) --- His "Kingdom of God" was everything that He created but He existed alone, I AM. He created angels but when angels fell, He made earth the "quarantine zone" wherein He would prepare a people to company with Him in eternity.

But obviously He had to work out this one little corner of His kingdom in order to not be alone (like Adam). Adam's lonliness is just a picture of what God felt. Do you have any questions from here?

God has to create man as His perfect counterpart (as Eve was to Adam) --- and with a perfect 3 "dimensions" (body, soul, spirit). But on account of the fall, He must save man in 3 phases -- justification (Israel), sanctification (church and Israel), and, making them like Himself, glorification. THEN He can "renovate" the "quarantine zone" and bring the kingdom of God to it/earth as well. We call this the New Earth! That, as I understand it, is God's plan.

That would be His ultimate counsel. He is doing whatever He needs to fulfill Himelf in His children.

skypair

That's very interesting.
May I ask approximately how old you are and what books, pastors or teachers have influenced your views the most?

 

[Amy.G]

Sorry about the "distortion" comment, but most people are against me here.

1) Rom 8:29 says foreknowledge, then predestination (or foreordination/decree) for BELEIVERS.

2) God's plan is this (IMO) --- His "Kingdom of God" was everything that He created but He existed alone, I AM. He created angels but when angels fell, He made earth the "quarantine zone" wherein He would prepare a people to company with Him in eternity.

But obviously He had to work out this one little corner of His kingdom in order to not be alone (like Adam). Adam's lonliness is just a picture of what God felt. Do you have any questions from here?

God has to create man as His perfect counterpart (as Eve was to Adam) --- and with a perfect 3 "dimensions" (body, soul, spirit). But on account of the fall, He must save man in 3 phases -- justification (Israel), sanctification (church and Israel), and, making them like Himself, glorification. THEN He can "renovate" the "quarantine zone" and bring the kingdom of God to it/earth as well. We call this the New Earth! That, as I understand it, is God's plan.

That would be His ultimate counsel. He is doing whatever He needs to fulfill Himelf in His children.

skypair

This makes it sound like the angels messed up, so God made another plan. Then man messed up, so God made another plan.

I think God had everything planned before anybody messed up.