His determinate counsel

It is not a condition for being chosen for salvation. That contradicts your "foreseen faith" theology, but that's what it says in black and white. You want to put the cart before the horse, but from the beginning, God has already chosen to salvation.

 

I gave you the strong's definition in the greek. Elect means chosen. Maybe I just don't know how to read a dictionary.

 

Why not? The word is either eklektos or haireomai. So let's look at the definitions...

1588 eklektos {ek-lek-tos'}
from 1586; TDNT - 4:181,505; adj
AV - elect 16, chosen 7; 23
1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God,
1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ
1a1a) Christians are called "
(strong's number 1588)

138 haireomai {hahee-reh'-om-ahee}
probably akin to 142; TDNT - 1:180,27; v
AV - choose 3; 3
1) to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2) to choose by vote, elect to office
(strong's number 138)

Can you say, "synonym"?

 

Well, there's still that little word "through."

IOW, you have to be sanctified by the Spirit and faith. God will choose you if you are sanctified through the Spirit and faith. And how and when are you sanctified? when do you have faith? You are indwelt and have faith when you ACCEPT the gospel and word of God and RECEIVE Christ!

He sanctifies us AFTER we accept and believe.

Absolutely! We aren't saved until we are washed and renewed. But we are saved, regenerated, and renewed when we ACCEPT and RECEIVE Christ.

Maybe the problem is that you are not married, npetrely. It is cusotmary for the man (Jesus) to propose to his girl ("virgin") and for her to ACCEPT and RECEIVE him -- to be "espoused" as in 2Cor 11:2. Don't EVEN pretend you are married when you are only "seeing each other" (still "totally depraved"). That's called "fornication," npetrely! You can to that with any ole theology!

skypair

 

Or maybe you don't know how to APPLY it. Many definitions can be cited but are not applicable.

Your MINISTRY is chosen for you by God if you are saved. You are NOT chosen to salvation but you choose salvation.

skypair

 

Yeah, but you keep wanting to change it to "if". But it doesn't say "if". It says "through", that is, the method by which God saves you. This is further proved by Titus 3:

he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

There you have the method and, lo and behold, faith isn't even mentioned! Why? Because it's a given. Once you've been washed and renewed, faith follows.

 

Where does it say God will choose you IF you are sanctified through the Spirit?

We are chosen...through sanctification not if we are sanctified.

 

Sorry NP, you beat me to it.

 

Both you and webdog really don't want this verse in the Bible, do you?

Read it and weep. You can throw up your "through" and "faith" smokescreens all you want, but it says, "God has FROM THE BEGINNING chosen you TO salvation". You're both wrong, and the Bible says it, plain as day.

 

Show me where the word "elect" is ever defined as "ministry".

I don't even know what that last statement means.

Edit: Ok, I understand what you mean after reading NP's post.
The scripture is plain, "chosen to/for salvation". How can you deny this? It's in black and white.

 

Isn't that amazing? Chosen is not the same thing as election, but ministry is? Wow.

And, I mean, how do you get from this...

...to this?

Short of drugs or a space ship, I just don't see the travel path from the scripture to the "interpretation".

 

I suspect the space ship travel path. :laugh:

 

You would probably be surprised to see who is flying around in our friendly skys.

 

Amy, you just don't know how refreshing it is to see someone who's eyes have been opened to the truth. It is so exciting to see one who is beginning their travel through the Word of God with fresh eyes open to the Sovereignty of God. You will find Scripture like you never have before. What a blessing!
This is not to say that those who are not Sovereign Grace inclined are blind. I do think God has purpose for everything. He has a balance ......... a creative tension between the Sovereignty of God, and the responsibility of man in His Holy Scripture. Why not extend that balance to mankind? This tension should be creative... and should keep us in balance. Can you imagine Sky if we didn't come here to *attempt* to keep him in check? raying:

 

I have never stated a "forseen faith" theology. For someone who gets as bent out of shape as you do about misrepresentation, I would think you would not do the same thing. :BangHead:
I know you want me to hate you and all, but at least play fair.

 

Maybe you need another Bible that has the rest of the verse...

Kind of sad, too, that you call Scripture...plain Scripture at that...a smokescreen. Those words are clearly there. I know you would rather they weren't, but that's life.

 

In the very verse you provided, Amy...

Quote:

We are chosen through sanctification of the Spirit...AND... faith. The verse is very straightforward. I know npetreley likes to put the period where it doesn't belong, but that doesn't make it correct.

 

Pounding? :laugh:

If you put periods where they don't belong, I guess. If you read Scripture at face value...HARDLY.

Take the night off anyway, though...