His determinate counsel

Here is testimony that calvinism is seen on every page of the Bible. :laugh:

Not that I'm surprised...when you read your theology into the Bible, that's exactly what you get. At least we finally have someone that admits it!

 

When were we chosen? From the beginning. In Ephesians it says from the foundation of the world. Are you going to say that God looked into the future to see who would have faith and then chose them? That is your only alternative because the verse of scripture says ;

because God has chosen you from the "beginning" for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

It was in the beginning, before man was born. How can man have faith if he is not born yet? Now you would have to say it was because of foresight on God's part. We would say it was because of God's foreloving.

 

It was never said that Calvinism is seen throughout the Bible. It was said that God's sovereignty is seen throughout the Bible. God does not answer to man. It is the other way around web.

 

Do you think the punctuation marks were inspired web? lol

 

I've never said that. Christ is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Those in Christ...well you can figure it out...

 

Do you think the translators got it wrong?

 

Where you put a period sure does. "There is no God." Period make any difference there?

 

If you don't believe that God looked into the future and saw who would believe and chose on that basis, then what do you think was the basis for God's choices?
Chosen before the foundation of the world surely means that the choice was made long before we were born, so what is the basis for God choosing you?

 

God "looking into the future" implies He is bound by time, as He is in a fixed point "looking into the future". He is not. Remember, in Isaiah, Jesus is called God's "Elect".

Think about this. With the world comes time, as God created both. How does God do anything "before" (time phrase) time was created? I believe those Scriptures are a mere glimpse at giving finite man...who is bound by time...a taste at God's true nature. Part of being Omnipresent involves existing in all time at the same time. How does an Omnipresent God do things "before" and "after" while existing in both at the same time?

 

Yes it is. And it doesn't say we are chosen through sanctification and faith. It says we are chosen to salvation through santification and faith.

In other words, through sanctification and faith refers back to salvation.

 

I had to re-read that twice. That is saying the same thing. At any rate, that's not unconditional, it's conditioned on sanctification of the Holy Spirit and faith.

Yes, how salvation was attained.

 

You did not answer my question. You just added to the confusion.

Why did God choose you? It is clear from scripture that we were "chosen" before the foundation of the world. What do you think was the basis God chose you? Was it something you did? An attitude?

 

I don't see salvation as something to be attained. It is something that is given.

 

Scripture tells me I was chosen to salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit and faith in Christ. That's how anyone is chosen to be a child of God...not arbitrarily. The other "confusion" was to stress the point (still would like an answer, btw)

 

...and accepted

Attained simply means "to arrive at", Amy. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

 

I think that this is trying to explain in human understanding exactly how God always was. In the same way, we can't really understand how God has both predestined us and given us the free will to except his gift. It is one of God's miracles. But I believe there are enough verses that tells us He has done both.

 

Somebody's got it :thumbs:

 

I don't recall arguing they did :BangHead: