His determinate counsel

You still haven't answered why you were chosen, but I'll answer it. It wasn't because of anything you said, thought or did or it wouldn't be of grace. So God chose you based on His desire to do so.

I'll go on to my next question. When someone has been chosen by God for salvation, will they be saved? Or is it just a possibility they will be saved?

 

False dichotomy, fallacy of no third option. It isn't EITHER by faith OR arbitrary. Learn to debate without using so many logical fallacies.

 

You believe it is conditional, so you have added that to the text. The text doesn't say that. It says:

WHAT GOD DECIDED, and WHEN HE DECIDED TO DO IT:

God from the beginning chose you for salvation

HOW GOD ACCOMPLISHED IT

through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

THE MEANS GOD USED

to which He called you by our gospel

THE PURPOSE

for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

There's nothing in there about God choosing to salvation conditional on someone's sanctification and faith. That doesn't even make sense, since we don't CHOOSE to sanctify ourselves -- the Holy Spirit does it, as the text says.

You can keep adding your philosophy to scripture, but it's not there.

Your fight is against scripture, not Calvinists.

 

No, it's not. The point is this: It is not the choosing that is through sanctification and faith, but rather the salvation that is through sanctification and faith.

Who ever said salvation was unconditional? It's only the chosing that's unconditional.

 

Any time you have translation, you have interpretation. Yes, in some instances I think the translators got it wrong. I believe the Bible to be inerrant, in the original autograph.

 

Here's how I understand Titus 3:5 (sanctification) in the scheme of salvation:

...................................Day of salvation.........................................rapture
...........................................\/........................................................\/
Soul: ..................Receive.......Justified ------------------------------------------------------>

Spirit:....Hear...... Accept.........Sanctification ------------------------------------------------>

Body:...............................................................................................Glorified ------->

Sanctification includes the gift of faith,, washing of the Holy Spirit regeneration (is the Spirit really going to wash you if you don't believe, npetrely?) and then renewing (rebirth) of the Spirit.

You presume faith follows. No point is proven by silence, friend.

skypair

 

Ministry or purpose, Amy. When the Bible mentions the election of Israel, it is always that they are elect to God's purposes (the main one being to bring Jesus into the world).

I believe we should look at Titus 3:5 like this:

God has SHOWN us that we are chosen unto salvation by washing us with regeneration and renewing our by the Spirit. Verse 7 tells us that we are thereby made "heirs according to the hope of eternal life" That hope is what we have because of the washing and renewing which we experienced.

It's the same point made in 2Cor 1:22.

skypair

 

Here's the problem with your interpretation -- "through." God chose us for salvation but ONLY because of (through) OUR 1) faith in the truth and 2) sanctification by the Spirit.

But tell me, isn't mine a possible interpretation? I mean, disregarding for a minute what you are bringing in from Calvinism, does this not make sense?

skypair

 

We are not bringing in anything called Calvinism sky... its called exegesis and hermeneutics. And no, you do not make sense. Try using sound exegesis on the verse of scripture. It does make a difference.

 

Why turn the sentence structure around sky? He chose us from the beginning... through setting us apart by the Spirit and faith in the truth. When we are set apart by the Spirit, faith in the truth comes with the setting apart. Set apart and faith in the truth are together.... but one comes before the other..... set apart by the Spirit... faith in the truth.

 

Come on, webdog, you're avoiding Amy's question.

You answered how, not why.
How were you chosen?
Your answer answers that.

Amy's asking, "why were you chosen to salvation?"

 

And here is the problem with your interpretation...

You are trying desparately to make this verse mean what you want it to based on what you are bringing into it from your free will point of view. You do not want to accept the true meaning.

God didn't choose you because you chose Him. I used to believe that too, but it doesn't make sense. If God chooses based on anything other than His desire, then it's not grace.

How many times in your life have you chosen something or someone because they chose you? Does that make sense to you? When you choose something it is soley because you desire to do so.

 

Good morning Amy. You mean like this? "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and {that} your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. John 15:16 :thumbs:

 

Good morning!
Yes. Exactly like that.

 

I did supply the why...but it doesn't agree with what you want to hear. The how and why are identical. God states "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". That is how and why we are chosen TO salvation, through the work of God and faith in Christ. It's very simple.

I also don't recall Amy answering the question I asked twice, either

 

Wasn't someone talking about proper hermeneutics? Context plainly shows that was speaking of choosing the twelve, was it not?

The Bible does have unconditional election (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Apostles, Israel, Jesus) but also conditional salvation (we are saved by grace through faith).

 

Okay, let's get your answers straight:
We are chosen to salvation "through 1)the work of God and 2)faith in Christ".
What work of God causes us to be chosen to salvation?
Why does our faith in Christ cause us to be chosen to salvation?

 

That's not what the Bible says, though. Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Jesus died 2000 years ago...not some 16,000 years ago. There is nothing happening "before" time was created, outside of time, yes, but not before.
Even when dealing with man in a time frame, God, being present at all points of time, doing something "before" within the time model doesn't compute.