His determinate counsel

[Jarthur001]

Think about this. With the world comes time, as God created both. How does God do anything "before" (time phrase) time was created? I believe those Scriptures are a mere glimpse at giving finite man...who is bound by time...a taste at God's true nature. Part of being Omnipresent involves existing in all time at the same time. How does an Omnipresent God do things "before" and "after" while existing in both at the same time?

Part of this a agree with believe it or not. However, being that you cannot separate matter and time, when God deals with man, it is in a time frame. When God made matter which he later made man with, there was a few days between both actions, going by the Bible. Before then means before, just as the Bible say.

 

[Amy.G]

Scripture tells me I was chosen to salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit and faith in Christ. That's how anyone is chosen to be a child of God...not arbitrarily. The other "confusion" was to stress the point (still would like an answer, btw)

You still haven't answered why you were chosen, but I'll answer it. It wasn't because of anything you said, thought or did or it wouldn't be of grace. So God chose you based on His desire to do so.

I'll go on to my next question. When someone has been chosen by God for salvation, will they be saved? Or is it just a possibility they will be saved?

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't recall arguing they did :BangHead:

That is what I said.....both times. Now go back to beating your head.

Yet you always place in quotes..."in Christ"...as if it changed the meaning.

You are right...it does not change a thing

 

[npetreley]

Scripture tells me I was chosen to salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit and faith in Christ. That's how anyone is chosen to be a child of God...not arbitrarily. The other "confusion" was to stress the point (still would like an answer, btw)

False dichotomy, fallacy of no third option. It isn't EITHER by faith OR arbitrary. Learn to debate without using so many logical fallacies.

 

[npetreley]

I had to re-read that twice. That is saying the same thing. At any rate, that's not unconditional, it's conditioned on sanctification of the Holy Spirit and faith.

You believe it is conditional, so you have added that to the text. The text doesn't say that. It says:

WHAT GOD DECIDED, and WHEN HE DECIDED TO DO IT:

God from the beginning chose you for salvation

HOW GOD ACCOMPLISHED IT

through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

THE MEANS GOD USED

to which He called you by our gospel

THE PURPOSE

for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

There's nothing in there about God choosing to salvation conditional on someone's sanctification and faith. That doesn't even make sense, since we don't CHOOSE to sanctify ourselves -- the Holy Spirit does it, as the text says.

You can keep adding your philosophy to scripture, but it's not there.

Your fight is against scripture, not Calvinists.

 

[russell55]

I had to re-read that twice. That is saying the same thing.

No, it's not. The point is this: It is not the choosing that is through sanctification and faith, but rather the salvation that is through sanctification and faith.

At any rate, that's not unconditional, it's conditioned on sanctification of the Holy Spirit and faith.

Who ever said salvation was unconditional? It's only the chosing that's unconditional.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Do you think the translators got it wrong?

Any time you have translation, you have interpretation. Yes, in some instances I think the translators got it wrong. I believe the Bible to be inerrant, in the original autograph.

 

[skypair]

There you have the method and, lo and behold, faith isn't even mentioned! Why? Because it's a given. Once you've been washed and renewed, faith follows.

Here's how I understand Titus 3:5 (sanctification) in the scheme of salvation:

...................................Day of salvation.........................................rapture
...........................................\/........................................................\/
Soul: ..................Receive.......Justified ------------------------------------------------------>

Spirit:....Hear...... Accept.........Sanctification ------------------------------------------------>

Body:...............................................................................................Glorified ------->

Sanctification includes the gift of faith,, washing of the Holy Spirit regeneration (is the Spirit really going to wash you if you don't believe, npetrely?) and then renewing (rebirth) of the Spirit.

You presume faith follows. No point is proven by silence, friend.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Show me where the word "elect" is ever defined as "ministry".

Ministry or purpose, Amy. When the Bible mentions the election of Israel, it is always that they are elect to God's purposes (the main one being to bring Jesus into the world).

The scripture is plain, "chosen to/for salvation". How can you deny this? It's in black and white.

I believe we should look at Titus 3:5 like this:

God has SHOWN us that we are chosen unto salvation by washing us with regeneration and renewing our by the Spirit. Verse 7 tells us that we are thereby made "heirs according to the hope of eternal life" That hope is what we have because of the washing and renewing which we experienced.

It's the same point made in 2Cor 1:22.

skypair

 

[skypair]

because God has chosen you from the "beginning" for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Here's the problem with your interpretation -- "through." God chose us for salvation but ONLY because of (through) OUR 1) faith in the truth and 2) sanctification by the Spirit.

But tell me, isn't mine a possible interpretation? I mean, disregarding for a minute what you are bringing in from Calvinism, does this not make sense?

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Here's the problem with your interpretation -- "through." God chose us for salvation but ONLY because of (through) OUR 1) faith in the truth and 2) sanctification by the Spirit.

But tell me, isn't mine a possible interpretation? I mean, disregarding for a minute what you are bringing in from Calvinism, does this not make sense?

skypair

We are not bringing in anything called Calvinism sky... its called exegesis and hermeneutics. And no, you do not make sense. Try using sound exegesis on the verse of scripture. It does make a difference.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Here's the problem with your interpretation -- "through." God chose us for salvation but ONLY because of (through) OUR 1) faith in the truth and 2) sanctification by the Spirit.

But tell me, isn't mine a possible interpretation? I mean, disregarding for a minute what you are bringing in from Calvinism, does this not make sense?

skypair

Why turn the sentence structure around sky? He chose us from the beginning... through setting us apart by the Spirit and faith in the truth. When we are set apart by the Spirit, faith in the truth comes with the setting apart. Set apart and faith in the truth are together.... but one comes before the other..... set apart by the Spirit... faith in the truth.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Scripture tells me I was chosen to salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit and faith in Christ.

Come on, webdog, you're avoiding Amy's question.

Why did God choose you? It is clear from scripture that we were "chosen" before the foundation of the world. What do you think was the basis God chose you? Was it something you did? An attitude?

You answered how, not why.
How were you chosen?
Your answer answers that.

I was chosen to salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit and faith in Christ.

Amy's asking, "why were you chosen to salvation?"

 

[Amy.G]

Here's the problem with your interpretation -- "through." God chose us for salvation but ONLY because of (through) OUR 1) faith in the truth and 2) sanctification by the Spirit.

But tell me, isn't mine a possible interpretation? I mean, disregarding for a minute what you are bringing in from Calvinism, does this not make sense?

skypair

And here is the problem with your interpretation...

You are trying desparately to make this verse mean what you want it to based on what you are bringing into it from your free will point of view. You do not want to accept the true meaning.

God didn't choose you because you chose Him. I used to believe that too, but it doesn't make sense. If God chooses based on anything other than His desire, then it's not grace.

How many times in your life have you chosen something or someone because they chose you? Does that make sense to you? When you choose something it is soley because you desire to do so.

 

[reformedbeliever]

And here is the problem with your interpretation...

You are trying desparately to make this verse mean what you want it to based on what you are bringing into it from your free will point of view. You do not want to accept the true meaning.

God didn't choose you because you chose Him. I used to believe that too, but it doesn't make sense. If God chooses based on anything other than His desire, then it's not grace.

How many times in your life have you chosen something or someone because they chose you? Does that make sense to you? When you choose something it is soley because you desire to do so.

Good morning Amy. You mean like this? "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and {that} your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. John 15:16 :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

Good morning Amy. You mean like this? "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and {that} your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. John 15:16 :thumbs:

Good morning!
Yes. Exactly like that.

 

[webdog]

Come on, webdog, you're avoiding Amy's question.

You answered how, not why.
How were you chosen?
Your answer answers that.

Amy's asking, "why were you chosen to salvation?"

I did supply the why...but it doesn't agree with what you want to hear. The how and why are identical. God states "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". That is how and why we are chosen TO salvation, through the work of God and faith in Christ. It's very simple.

I also don't recall Amy answering the question I asked twice, either

 

[webdog]

Good morning Amy. You mean like this? "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and {that} your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. John 15:16 :thumbs:

Wasn't someone talking about proper hermeneutics? Context plainly shows that was speaking of choosing the twelve, was it not?

The Bible does have unconditional election (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Apostles, Israel, Jesus) but also conditional salvation (we are saved by grace through faith).

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I did supply the why...but it doesn't agree with what you want to hear. The how and why are identical.
God states "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".
That is how and why we are chosen TO salvation, through the work of God and faith in Christ. It's very simple.

Okay, let's get your answers straight:
We are chosen to salvation "through 1)the work of God and 2)faith in Christ".
What work of God causes us to be chosen to salvation?
Why does our faith in Christ cause us to be chosen to salvation?

 

[webdog]

Part of this a agree with believe it or not. However, being that you cannot separate matter and time, when God deals with man, it is in a time frame. When God made matter which he later made man with, there was a few days between both actions, going by the Bible. Before then means before, just as the Bible say.

That's not what the Bible says, though. Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Jesus died 2000 years ago...not some 16,000 years ago. There is nothing happening "before" time was created, outside of time, yes, but not before.
Even when dealing with man in a time frame, God, being present at all points of time, doing something "before" within the time model doesn't compute.