His determinate counsel

From sending His Son to the drawing of man to Himself.

Because God sovereingly makes the rules? (Eph. 2:8-9)

Can I ask you this? How does an Omnipresent God do things "before" and "after" while existing in both at the same time?

 

Does He not do that for everyone?

That's what I'm wondering.

 

I still don't see the why in your answer, unless you believe God chose you because you would believe. The choosing was done before you did anything, before you were born, so what was the reason?

Sorry WD, I don't remember the question. Would you please remind me? I didn't mean to ignore you.

 

Amy, I think it might be this:

 

Ok. Well, I don't have the answer to how God exits throughout all "time" and at the same time. What does that have to do with God's choosing some for salvation?

 

Amy, I am curious why is it so important to know why God does something? Why the need to feel like we have to understand God's mysteries? We trust in Him, we know He is just. But I don't understand the need to completely comprehend or reconcile God's sovereign election and man's free will. They are both true. Why question how and why God works?

 

I'm not Amy, but it may be because some think that they were chosen because of their faith. The Bible clearly says before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). If God chose before they were born, or the world was created (and He did) then how could God's choice be because of the supposed faith that some people claim. They also claim it was not due to God's looking into the future to see who would have faith. They want to make the claim that God is in all time.... and they think that God can not act in a certain point in time, due to Him being present in all time. At least thats what I think they are trying to say........lol. The same God who is in all time, claims that He chose the elect before the foundation of the world..... that just does't fit their soterology.

edited to add. John 1:13 says we were born again, not of flesh or of blood, or the will of man, but of God. Is making a decision an act of the will? Yes it is. We were not born again of our will but God's.

 

It plays a HUGE role, IMO. Chosen "before the foundation of the world" becomes much clearer (albeit not being able to ever fully understand it).

I don't understand how you cannot see the "why".

God: Believe and be saved.

Amy: Believed

Why was Amy saved? Because she obeyed God by putting her faith in Christ.
How was Amy saved? By obeying God through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit and faith in Christ.

 

See Amy, this post is a perfect example of what I mean when one looks at the "before's" and "pre's" through the understanding there is no "fore" or "pre" with a truly Omnispresent God.

 

Steven, I agree with you that we do not to know or understand everything about God in order to trust and love Him, but in terms of this discussion it's important to make a distinction between God's sovereignty and man's sovereignty.
I am trying to understand webdog's beliefs, that's all. He agrees that we were chosen (I think ), but the question is why we were chosen? Was it because of something God foresaw in us (because our names were recorded in the book of life before anything was created)? Or were we chosen because it was God's desire to do so apart from anything in us? It's an important distinction because this thread is about God's sovereignty and grace.

 

Ok, this says how I was saved, but not why I was chosen. That's what the discussion is about. Why was I chosen, not how was I saved.

Thanks for thinking I'm saved though.
There must be something in me besides rotten fruit! :laugh:

 

Aside from the mountain of scriptural support to the contrary -- if we were chosen because of something God foresaw in us, there would be something about which we could boast. To say, "chosen because of something God foresaw in us" is the same thing as, "He picked us because we were better."

 

I cannot even begin to fathom how God operates in and out of time, but scripture says:
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

The choice was made before anything came into being, including time.

 

Something dosn't happen "before" time is created, as before is clearly a word used only in connection with time.

 

I see you have the calvinistic semantics game down, now

Explain how "chosen for salvation through sanctification of the Holy Spirit and faith in the Truth" differs from being saved

 

Of course there is a fore or pre. God breathed that these words were writen to us so that we could understand that His choice of us was BEFORE we were born.
You try to say that it is not due to God's foresight because God is present at the end at the same time He is present at the beginning. God is omnipresent in all time... but that does not change the fact that He sees all time and what a person will do in time. He does not elect us on the condition of Him seeing our faith web. He elects us according to the good counsel of His will.
We are born again, not because of faith-trust-belief. We are born again of God... not a decision or exercise of our will. John 1:13

 

Can it also refer to sequence? Why does it have to refer to time?

First..there was God

second...God made plans

third...God worked

Either way, God wrote that verse to us and used the word "before" and we should understand it in the normal way that we would understand it, and not through some time/space quantam physics sort of interpretation. (ok, I was trying to sound smart on that part. :laugh: )
The point remains though.

 

Why don't you tell God that. If you have already told Him, He must have forgotten it.

 

Sigh. Because of the word "for".

Chosen......for.......salvation.

 

And if the good counsel of His will states we are saved by grace through faith, are we to question?

Eph. 2:8-9 disagrees, we ARE born again BY grace THROUGH faith. I agree it is not an exercise of the will...I don't believe in libertarian free will, that we can do enough or will ourselved to be accepted. We merely have to receive the Truth given us by faith.