His determinate counsel

[npetreley]

Faith is not a condition for salvation?

It is not a condition for being chosen for salvation. That contradicts your "foreseen faith" theology, but that's what it says in black and white. You want to put the cart before the horse, but from the beginning, God has already chosen to salvation.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy -- I appreciate you quoting scriptures as if I have never seen them and posting definitions as if they applied to salvation and not ministry. But it still all boils down to interpretation.

Did you notice that you just assume that "chosen" means "elect" in all those verses where the word is "chosen?"

What is interesting and what you probably didn't notice is that those uses of "elect" that you cited refer to ISRAEL. They are an "elect" people unto God's purposes! And I know that Calvinists play a lot of their theology off the notion that the church is "elect" just like Israel. They don't normally recognize dispensations is why.

skypair

I gave you the strong's definition in the greek. Elect means chosen. Maybe I just don't know how to read a dictionary.

 

[npetreley]

Did you notice that you just assume that "chosen" means "elect" in all those verses where the word is "chosen?"

Why not? The word is either eklektos or haireomai. So let's look at the definitions...

1588 eklektos {ek-lek-tos'}
from 1586; TDNT - 4:181,505; adj
AV - elect 16, chosen 7; 23
1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God,
1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ
1a1a) Christians are called "
(strong's number 1588)

138 haireomai {hahee-reh'-om-ahee}
probably akin to 142; TDNT - 1:180,27; v
AV - choose 3; 3
1) to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2) to choose by vote, elect to office
(strong's number 138)

Can you say, "synonym"?

 

[skypair]

God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation

This is a fact. There is no condition here. It was decided from the beginning, before we were even born.

Well, there's still that little word "through."

through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth

IOW, you have to be sanctified by the Spirit and faith. God will choose you if you are sanctified through the Spirit and faith. And how and when are you sanctified? when do you have faith? You are indwelt and have faith when you ACCEPT the gospel and word of God and RECEIVE Christ!

This is how God did it. He sanctified us by the Spirit (regeneration) which enabled our faith in the truth. This is described also in Titus 3:

He sanctifies us AFTER we accept and believe.

he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

Absolutely! We aren't saved until we are washed and renewed. But we are saved, regenerated, and renewed when we ACCEPT and RECEIVE Christ.

Maybe the problem is that you are not married, npetrely. It is cusotmary for the man (Jesus) to propose to his girl ("virgin") and for her to ACCEPT and RECEIVE him -- to be "espoused" as in 2Cor 11:2. Don't EVEN pretend you are married when you are only "seeing each other" (still "totally depraved"). That's called "fornication," npetrely! You can to that with any ole theology!

skypair

 

[skypair]

I gave you the strong's definition in the greek. Elect means chosen. Maybe I just don't know how to read a dictionary.

Or maybe you don't know how to APPLY it. Many definitions can be cited but are not applicable.

Your MINISTRY is chosen for you by God if you are saved. You are NOT chosen to salvation but you choose salvation.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Well, there's still that little word "through."

Yeah, but you keep wanting to change it to "if". But it doesn't say "if". It says "through", that is, the method by which God saves you. This is further proved by Titus 3:

he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

There you have the method and, lo and behold, faith isn't even mentioned! Why? Because it's a given. Once you've been washed and renewed, faith follows.

 

[Amy.G]

IOW, you have to be sanctified by the Spirit and faith. God will choose you if you are sanctified through the Spirit and faith. And how and when are you sanctified? when do you have faith? You are indwelt and have faith when you ACCEPT the gospel and word of God and RECEIVE Christ!skypair

Where does it say God will choose you IF you are sanctified through the Spirit?

because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

We are chosen...through sanctification not if we are sanctified.

 

[Amy.G]

Sorry NP, you beat me to it.

 

[npetreley]

You are NOT chosen to salvation but you choose salvation.

Both you and webdog really don't want this verse in the Bible, do you?

God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

Read it and weep. You can throw up your "through" and "faith" smokescreens all you want, but it says, "God has FROM THE BEGINNING chosen you TO salvation". You're both wrong, and the Bible says it, plain as day.

 

[Amy.G]

Or maybe you don't know how to APPLY it. Many definitions can be cited but are not applicable.

Your MINISTRY is chosen for you by God if you are saved. You are NOT chosen to salvation but you choose salvation.

skypair

Show me where the word "elect" is ever defined as "ministry".

I don't even know what that last statement means.

Edit: Ok, I understand what you mean after reading NP's post.
The scripture is plain, "chosen to/for salvation". How can you deny this? It's in black and white.

 

[npetreley]

Show me where the word "elect" is ever defined as "ministry".

Isn't that amazing? Chosen is not the same thing as election, but ministry is? Wow.

And, I mean, how do you get from this...

God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth

...to this?

Your MINISTRY is chosen for you by God if you are saved. You are NOT chosen to salvation but you choose salvation

Short of drugs or a space ship, I just don't see the travel path from the scripture to the "interpretation".

 

[Amy.G]

Isn't that amazing? Chosen is not the same thing as election, but ministry is? Wow.

And, I mean, how do you get from this...



...to this?



Short of drugs or a space ship, I just don't see the travel path from the scripture to the "interpretation".

I suspect the space ship travel path. :laugh:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Isn't that amazing? Chosen is not the same thing as election, but ministry is? Wow.

And, I mean, how do you get from this...



...to this?



Short of drugs or a space ship, I just don't see the travel path from the scripture to the "interpretation".

You would probably be surprised to see who is flying around in our friendly skys.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Amy, you just don't know how refreshing it is to see someone who's eyes have been opened to the truth. It is so exciting to see one who is beginning their travel through the Word of God with fresh eyes open to the Sovereignty of God. You will find Scripture like you never have before. What a blessing!
This is not to say that those who are not Sovereign Grace inclined are blind. I do think God has purpose for everything. He has a balance ......... a creative tension between the Sovereignty of God, and the responsibility of man in His Holy Scripture. Why not extend that balance to mankind? This tension should be creative... and should keep us in balance. Can you imagine Sky if we didn't come here to *attempt* to keep him in check? raying:

 

[Jarthur001]

wow....tough day to be a freewiller.

After a pounding like they got today, I just may take the night off.
:sleeping_2:

 

[Jarthur001]

Amy, you just don't know how refreshing it is to see someone who's eyes have been opened to the truth. It is so exciting to see one who is beginning their travel through the Word of God with fresh eyes open to the Sovereignty of God. You will find Scripture like you never have before. What a blessing!
This is not to say that those who are not Sovereign Grace inclined are blind. I do think God has purpose for everything. He has a balance ......... a creative tension between the Sovereignty of God, and the responsibility of man in His Holy Scripture. Why not extend that balance to mankind? This tension should be creative... and should keep us in balance. Can you imagine Sky if we didn't come here to *attempt* to keep him in check? raying:

I second that. Once it clicks..you see it on every page of the Bible.

Bless you Amy. It is refreshing.

 

[webdog]

It is not a condition for being chosen for salvation. That contradicts your "foreseen faith" theology, but that's what it says in black and white. You want to put the cart before the horse, but from the beginning, God has already chosen to salvation.

I have never stated a "forseen faith" theology. For someone who gets as bent out of shape as you do about misrepresentation, I would think you would not do the same thing. :BangHead:
I know you want me to hate you and all, but at least play fair.

 

[webdog]

Both you and webdog really don't want this verse in the Bible, do you?



Read it and weep. You can throw up your "through" and "faith" smokescreens all you want, but it says, "God has FROM THE BEGINNING chosen you TO salvation". (enormous period for emphasis) You're both wrong, and the Bible says it, plain as day.

Maybe you need another Bible that has the rest of the verse...

Kind of sad, too, that you call Scripture...plain Scripture at that...a smokescreen. Those words are clearly there. I know you would rather they weren't, but that's life.

 

[webdog]

Where does it say God will choose you IF you are sanctified through the Spirit?

In the very verse you provided, Amy...

Quote:

because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

We are chosen...through sanctification not if we are sanctified.

We are chosen through sanctification of the Spirit...AND... faith. The verse is very straightforward. I know npetreley likes to put the period where it doesn't belong, but that doesn't make it correct.

 

[webdog]

wow....tough day to be a freewiller.

After a pounding like they got today, I just may take the night off.
:sleeping_2:

Pounding? :laugh:

If you put periods where they don't belong, I guess. If you read Scripture at face value...HARDLY.

Take the night off anyway, though...