History of Calvin

[glfredrick]

Except that Baptists so want to baptize their children that you invented "infant dedication." That's cheap because it doesn't cost you anything. How about dedicating your paycheck to God?

Huh?

Obviously you have never set foot in a Baptist church...

 

[Rippon]

I bought a wonderful book a while back.(I used to put my date of purchase). The author is Herman J.Selderhuis. He's a leading Reformation historian. His book is:John Calvin : A Pilgrim's Life.

I'll give some snips from it.

Calvin was certainly not the big boss of Geneva,and in fact had no political power at all. He was indeed the chief pastor,but that got him very little in a city where the government made all of the final decisions,even in the church,and it got him nothing at all when that government was not particularly well-disposed toward him. (p.128)

The city,for instance,had already decided to purify itself and adopt imperial law --including the death-penalty for heretics --as its norm when Calvin was still many miles away,and in fact still a student. The old image of Calvin the tyrant is not at all in line with the facts... in reality he never had much say in Geneva --except possibly toward the end of his life. [That would have been the last 10 years of his life --1555-1564 --Rip] (p.64)

The Geneva archives clearly show he was no king...(p.66)

A needed corrective for those who attempt to pervert history.

 

[Rippon]

Herman Selderhuis

...The supposedly scandalous things of which Calvin has been accused for centuries were nothing other than the results of laws enacted by the government of Geneva and received by its citizens.(p.119)

It is high time to overturn another image:that of Calvin as the mayor of Geneva. He actually kept his dance from politics...He was glad to give up the power that others said he so eagerly sought...[and which he never had in the first place --Rip] (p.147)

The above is true history --not the twisting of it for one's own ends.

 

[Rippon]

Remember, I put this OP together not to raise Calvin to sainthood but rather to keep some of the scurrilousness accusations about him in their proper context.

Yep, and that is exactly what I have been trying to do as well.

 

[Rippon]

A Pilgrim's Life

Mr.Selderhuis speaks of the fact that people from all over Europe "came to Geneva because of Calvin... The notion that Geneva must have been a terrible place to live during Calvin's lifetime does not fit at all with the fact that thousands took refuge there and were more than glad to stay." (p.216,217)

Hear, hear!

 

[Don]

Did you really just "hear, hear" your own post?

 

[Revmitchell]

Did you really just "hear, hear" your own post?

He quotes himself more than he quotes anyone else on the board.

 

[Rippon]

Selderhuis :A Pilgrim's Life

Servetus

[J]ust two hours before servetus was burned,Calvin maintained he had not battled him for personal reasons."I do not hate you,I do not despise you and I did not want to be in hard pursuit of you." (33)

The reason Servetus had for all intents and purposes been burned by Rome was that he thought the doctrine of the Trinity was a bunch of nonsense. He called God a three-headed monster,and also had other names to make his opinion clear. What he did and said was against the law. Emperor Charles V had established a law that everyone in his empire who denied the doctrine of the Trinity was to be punished with death. A denial of the Trinity was a frontal attack on the Christian faith,and thus on the established power of the empire as well. This meant that Servetus could just as well have been burned in Cologne,Strasbourg or Antwerp. Unfortunately for Calvin,and for all Reformed believers in fact,it happened that Servetus was executed in Geneva. (204)


At the time,in any case,no one thought anything of it. This is clear from the letters of advice Geneva received from neighboring cities upon request. Servetus was arrested and interrogated. at a certain point in the proceedings he was offerred the chance to be returned to France,but on his knees he pleaded that he might be tried in Geneva. His request was honored.
The council could come to no other decision but to have Servetus burned at the stake: if this step was not taken Geneva itself ran the risk of being seen as a city that threatened the state. Calvin went to seek out Servetus and convince him to recant his statements,but he did not succeed. He also did not succeed in securing a less painful death sentence for Servetus,asking that he be hanged instead. [I thought Calvin was in favor of beheading --Rip] Once again,it is more than clear that Calvin by no means had the final say in Geneva. Servetus was burned,but the smell of smoke has clung to Calvin's clothes for centuries. (205)

It is remarkable that Servetus was condemned by a government that was actually not at all favorably disposed toward Calvin,but they saw no other option but to carry this punishment out. Any city that became known as tolerant of those who would deny the Trinity would be abandoned by friend and foe alike. (206)

I don't know how he got hanging confused with beheading --but otherwise the above stands in stark contrast to the false claims by a number here on the BB.

 

[Rippon]

Did you really just "hear, hear" your own post?

I was affirming the words of Herman Selderhuis.

 

[Rippon]

And yet, I'd lay odds that you would argue against the church universal... :tonofbricks:

I can understand why you are having problems with Calvin. You have bought into a bunch of lies about the man that almost single-handedly gave us the theology that extracted God's church from Catholicism.

WHOM ELSE wrote a complete theology before or after Calvin that helped guide the church into right thinking about God and the church?

As for Calvin's history, simply reading a few books would greatly help you. There are many out there -- or better still, read Calvin's Institutes and circle all the stuff you disagree with, then bring a thread so we can discuss it.

This was said in reply to Bro. James. But the message needs to sound in the ears of a number of folks here who are NOT hearing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hear, hear!

Well yea.....Especially if you were a Huguenot. However the Margrieve of Brandenburg (after the 30 years war) was cutting them better deals in the formation of Prussia.

But I don't believe Calvin had any tolerance for Jews .... or Lutherans for that matter. In fact, after Calvin & Beze's deaths, the Genevan Church lost many privileges that Calvin won for nonreligious affairs & the hard theocracy that Ferel, Calvin & Beze so painstakingly crafted died with them.

If I may, I see the same thing happening in New Jersey. My dear wife was raised on hard core Dutch Reformed moral principles and hard theology. Today, try and find a Dutch Reformed Church in the state.....a real one I mean. They, along with many "orthodox" churches are pretty much extinct.

 

[Rippon]

Today, try and find a Dutch Reformed Church in the state.....a real one I mean. They, along with many "orthodox" churches are pretty much extinct.

Talk to DHK about that. He thinks hyper-Calvinism is running wild in Presbyterianism and especially in the Dutch Reformed assemblies. (chuckle)

 

[Rippon]

EW&F: it seems that lately you have drifted significantly from what you originally held to in this thread from three years ago. Am I mistaken? Or do you wish to distance yourself from a lot of your remarks in this thread?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EW&F: it seems that lately you have drifted significantly from what you originally held to in this thread from three years ago. Am I mistaken? Or do you wish to distance yourself from a lot of your remarks in this thread?

As you stated correctly, that was 3 years ago. There is always more evidence that is discovered to examine & deduce. This is not a cold case....so as additional data gets discovered, it can be brought forth for examination & discussion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Talk to DHK about that. He thinks hyper-Calvinism is running wild in Presbyterianism and especially in the Dutch Reformed assemblies. (chuckle)

seriously.....are there any Dutch Reformed Churches left?

 

[DHK]

seriously.....are there any Dutch Reformed Churches left?

The Dutch Reformed Churches still exist, though they have amalgamated with other Presbyterians. One can still find congregations that are still primarily made up of more than 90% Dutch immigrants and hold to the old traditions.
They are as Calvinistic as any "Reformed" church I am acquainted with if not more so. This quote is as good as an example as any:

Here’s where our accent gets a little more pronounced. We profess that God’s promises are not simply made to individuals but to a community. Not only that, they are generational. We take our cue from God’s Old Testament covenant with the people of Israel. And we note that on the day of Pentecost, in the first Christian sermon, the apostle Peter urges adult Jews to “repent and believe” this new interpretation of the events of Jesus’ life and death and their complicity in it. When they do so, he says, they will receive the promised Holy Spirit, which is “for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call” (Acts 2:39). Even in the New Testament, God’s promises are communal and generational. This means, for example, that with joy we baptize adults who want to profess their faith, and with equal joy we baptize infants (a practice that goes back to the early church). There’s a catch, though. Baptism is reserved for children of believing parents (or a believing parent) who are part of the church family, because we know that the Holy Spirit is active in those households. Those children will grow up to experience God’s promises at home and in the Christian community. Infant baptism is about God extending his promise to our children even though they have no understanding at the time. It is a sign to the whole congregation that God’s grace is a gift we cannot earn: it’s all about God acting first.

This is from the "First Christian Reformed Church" which defines itself as a "Dutch Reformed" church.

Overtime they have become more liberal and definitely ecumenical.

In another part of their website they write:

As Reformed Christians we want to keep praying both of these: “Lord, keep us obediently in you” and “Lord, make us one.” And to the best of our ability we’ll need to work at both, right along with our Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, and Baptist sisters and brothers.

Coming out of Rome and going back to Rome. Sad isn't it?
But they are Reformed, nevertheless.

http://firstcrcedmonton.ca/about-us/what-we-believe
http://www.bethelchurch.ca/resources.html

 

[Bro. James]

Reformation: putting a new spin on some bad religion.

The reformed reformed have the same problem--man made religion is still exactly that: man and his good works.

The daughters are going back to their mother--per her rules of ecumenism. See Vatican II.

The Bride of Christ is getting ready for the marriage supper. She has never participated in Rome, Wittenburg or Geneva; throw in Nauvoo for good measure.

Are we ready?

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

Bro. James

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Coming out of Rome and going back to Rome. Sad isn't it?

Abe Kuyper would cry in his wooden shoes.

As a sidenote, you gotta hear how my MIL (now that she is retired & moved to Florida) talks about churches down there. She has absolutely no use for them. Her commentary starts with "yea, feed them & they will come" LOL .... but its gotten even better as she continues to adapt to that culture. Bottom line, she doesn't believe in much of the antics that they play to entice you in there. Coming from a devout Reformed old lady who reared her kids in serious Reformed churches, the world has passed her by. I always look forward to her stories of State where ya go ta die! VERY FUNNY.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I bought a wonderful book a while back.(I used to put my date of purchase). The author is Herman J.Selderhuis. He's a leading Reformation historian. His book is:John Calvin : A Pilgrim's Life.

I'll give some snips from it.

Calvin was certainly not the big boss of Geneva,and in fact had no political power at all. He was indeed the chief pastor,but that got him very little in a city where the government made all of the final decisions,even in the church,and it got him nothing at all when that government was not particularly well-disposed toward him. (p.128)

The city,for instance,had already decided to purify itself and adopt imperial law --including the death-penalty for heretics --as its norm when Calvin was still many miles away,and in fact still a student. The old image of Calvin the tyrant is not at all in line with the facts... in reality he never had much say in Geneva --except possibly toward the end of his life. [That would have been the last 10 years of his life --1555-1564 --Rip] (p.64)

The Geneva archives clearly show he was no king...(p.66)

I refer you to this simple little statement from the EuropeanLeaders website regarding Calvin's usurping of governmental powers in Geneva, quoted from the reference at the end of the statement:

In 1541, Calvin took over the political power in Geneva and imposed strict moral codes, such as what people could wear and entertainment. ("John Calvin" History Reference Center)

Further, I offer this from a doctoral candidate at Calvin Theological Seminary, one Mark J. Larson (recognize the name?).John Calvin And Genevan Presbyterianism

The Geneva consistory held a crucial place in the thinking of John Calvin. Doubtless, Calvin never would have returned to Geneva apart from a concession on the Genevan government’s part that he be allowed to establish a consistory.1 Theodore Beza, his successor as the moderator of the Company of Pastors, wrote about the centrality the consistory in Calvin’s philosophy of ministry in his biography: “Or afin que on entende comment Calvin s’y est porté: premierement d’entré il protesta de n’accepter point la charge de ceste Eglise, sinon qu’il y eust consistoire ordonné et discipline ecclesiastique convenable: pour ce qu’il voyoit que telles brides estoyent necessaires et qu’il n’estoit point question de dilayer.”2 Clearly, it was Calvin’s deep conviction that he could not properly fulfill his ministry apart from the establishment of a consistory with full ecclesiastical authority.

Scholars such as Lefferts Loetscher and Robert Kingdon have recognized the significance of Calvin’s church polity when it comes to Presbyterian church government. Without hesitation, Loetscher declares, “John Calvin . . . was the chief formulator of Presbyterianism. . . . Calvin more than any other one man gave to Presbyterianism its distinctive character.”3 As to the form of government which Calvin established in Geneva, Loetscher asserts, “In Geneva, Calvin developed one of his most distinctive achievements—Presbyterian church government.”4
---
When I speak about the civil magistrates or the Seigneury in the following discussion concerning the discipline of the Genevan ministers, I am referring to the Small Council which stood at the apex of the hierarchy of the three councils which governed Geneva. The Small Council was composed of twenty-five citizens who wielded the real power in the Republic of Geneva. Harro Hopfl, The Christian Polity of John Calvin (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1982) 132, makes the point that “they exercised the power of life and death.”

Further, the ancient French phrase from Calvin's own biography Larson cites roughly translates (using Babelfish which only translates modern French):Or so you might hear how Calvin is applied: first input he protested point to accept the burden of ceste Church, otherwise what it y eust ordered consistory and discipline ecclesiastical. In other words, he ordered the seigneury, or feudal council of Geneva to follow his lead.

And finally, the italicized portion of that enclosed quote from Larson is a footnote to this very lengthy paper Larson wrote detailing how Calvin usurped the powers of the Genevan Council and essentially dictated via an unofficial theocracy how the city-state would be run.

If this isn't enough, I can post more. You are welcome to continue to deny Calvin had anything to do with running the city-state of Geneva if you wish, but you will clearly be wrong to do so.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Reformation: putting a new spin on some bad religion.

The reformed reformed have the same problem--man made religion is still exactly that: man and his good works.

The daughters are going back to their mother--per her rules of ecumenism. See Vatican II.

The Bride of Christ is getting ready for the marriage supper. She has never participated in Rome, Wittenburg or Geneva; throw in Nauvoo for good measure.

Are we ready?

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

Bro. James

Thought we were supposed to be discussing Jackie Calvin.....was he a low down good for nothing cur or a man of God is the real issue here? But if you ever go to Geneva, the most impressive man-made structure is in fact the noble "Reformation Movement" statue of the figures of Farel, Calvin, Beze & Knox. The pigeons at least must be grateful that these men lived. LOL!