Hitler's Pope

[Eliyahu]

To rsr:

And how could they? What we have access to is verified letters. Yours is not one of them.

Who has verified the letters? Has the State Dept or White House vedrified all the correspondences between Truman and Pacelli?
Could they verify with White House or with State Dept that the article which I posted is a Hoax? Why not?

Sure they can. I can quote, with reasonable certainty, from any number of sources, such as the various versions of Jefferson's letter to Danbury Baptists, Calvin's Institutes, the First and Second London Baptist confessions, the works of Martin Luther, some of the writings of Tertullian, the proceedings of the Council of Trent, the letters of James Madison, etc.

Yes, some of them are very easy to verify, but can you verify some more diplomatic correspondences with the State Dept?
If yes, why don't you verify with the State Dept that the post is a Hoax?

You have simply picked up an Internet source for a document and, because you agree with it, assume it must be reliable. Why not just be honest and admit it?

Are you saying that all the internet resources are not reliable? Then why did you post the internet sources? Did you verify it personally with the State Dept and White House? Have you checked about it personally? Why don't you be honest and admit that you just picked up what you like ?

Eliyahu : This type of accusation or refutation may be often used by the Inquisitors when they tortured the true believers objections to the Roman Catholicism.

Back to that again, are we? Your line of reasoning, in fact, is more in keeping with the Inquisition. You can't prove the allegations are false, so they must be true. I really would have expected better of you if I had not read so many of your posts.

So, now you are admitting that you don't believe the History of Baptists.
YOu must know this. Roman Religion tortured and killed many Christian believers after condemning them as Heretics, and removed all the literatures and writings by them, then have accused them with Heresies which the victims never believed, never said. You never answered my question, Can the dogs change their habits of urinating anywhere and anytime? Can the Idol worshippers change their habits of killing the True believers?

Jesus may be wrong in saying this? 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

No, you once again have turned the argument on its head. By referencing a source, it is your responsibility to establish its veracity. You are unable to. All you can give is a second- (or third- or fourth- or fifth-) hand quote.

No, you are trying to revert the issues of Hitler's Pope to the Truman's Pope. You try to bite any weak points. You mentioned that Goering had the wedding at Protestant church, which is very mjinor on this issue, though Goering was born between Catholic and Protestant. There have been millions of lukewarm and fake Christians even among the Protestants or Baptists and they can easily join the Roman Religion, as you may want to.

Well, yes. It's not the letter a responsible chief executive would write. (Unless, of course, the president were sending it to a music critic who had just panned his daughter's performance.) To believe for a second that Truman, in his capacity as president would pen such a letter to be presented officially is ludicrous and shows you know nothing about the history in question.

You can argue about such, but in the field of Diplomacy there are many more unimaginable, and you should remember that Pacelli was in the pinch after WWII. He could have been indicted as a War criminal in Nuremberg Tribunal.

I don't believe that is the topic of this thread.

You conveniently evade my question, because your soul love to advocate the Idol worshippers and murderers. But please remember this, Our Great General Jesus Christ will come again and win over the wicked deceivers and the Mother of Harlots, the Babylon and the goddess worshippers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire! Where will you be at that time?

Well, I admit the Wikipedia is an improvement upon your usual sources, but it is certainly not definitive. Besides, that's not the issue.

You don't trust any articles against RCC, right? But the point is again, can the dogs change the habits? Holocaust was just the extension of what RCC had done in the past thru Inquisition and Crusade, and the photos which I mentioned show that Pacelli was the very person who signed the Concordat to recognize RCC as the only religion allowed in Third Reich.

Even today, RCC do not admit that they were involved in Nazis, so that they may repeat the same again during the Great Tribulation.

And, unless you can present better evidence than you have, it will not be verified. In the absence of better sourcing, my proof is better than yours. Not definitive, but better. That's the way sourcing works.


A man with no respect for verification and provenance is not to be trusted, don't you think? "“One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much."

You are quite blinded with the deceptions. Read this first.
Mt 7
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


Do you think the Inquisitors and Idol Worshippers are good trees?
Don't you know that Pope was the ARch-Priest of the Idol Worshipping religion? Was Jesus wrong in saying above?

Nope. Never said it. Don't believe it. Pius, in my estimation, showed insufficent moral courage at a time of great trial. Many others in the West must share in that assessment.

Oh! good you should have mentioned this earlier, that the Infallible Pope was wrong!

Well, yes, they are. Never said they weren't. "At present we are men looking at puzzling reflections in a mirror. The time will come when we shall see reality whole and face to face! At present all I know is a little fraction of the truth, but the time will come when I shall know it as fully as God now knows me!"

Nope! You have another problem! Your eyes have big Beams like Streetlight poles in them, and therefore you cannot see thru the history. You better remove them first. You may say that you are born again, but in my view you may not be as you cannot see the history properly like a man who licked the skin of the water melon thousand times but have never broken and eaten the inside of it.

Do you ever grow weary of making personal attacks? I am sure it wearies the other readers even if it does not fatigue you.

Personally, I care not one iota (or jot or tittle) about your ill-founded and reckless attacks on my Baptist bona fides.

Nope! I just tell the truth, and I am not deceived many times but once or twice, then I am quite straightforward. I enjoy reading your comedy and childish faith. What I posted is ill-founded personal attacks and your posts are nice novels? Maybe for the angels of Devil!

No, thanks. Please come back - as Colin admirably has done - with something more than a collection of anti-Christian Web sites that you seem to think constitute "proof" of your position.

Opportunity, perhaps? There is indeed a regrettable record. But to think that Hitler would have accomplished his goal without the support of non-Cathlics is moonshine, pure and simple. Governments of most religious stripes - and none - have sad records of human rights abuses.

Sorry not to be deceived by your tactics!

You must check this seriously first.
2 Cor 13:
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Because there are many fake believers in the churches like this:
Gal 2:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:


In the whole discussion, the Truman letter was just a part of it, now your spirit is attacking it vehemently without any ultimate refutation from the prime sources, which I believe results from the fact that you don't believe the History of the True Believers. Your soul advocate the Idol Worshippers! RCC is not Christian! RCC has been the killers of Christians, do you know this?

 

[rsr]

To rsr:

Who has verified the letters? Has the State Dept or White House vedrified all the correspondences between Truman and Pacelli?
Could they verify with White House or with State Dept that the article which I posted is a Hoax? Whynot?

]Yes, some of them are very easy to verify, but can you verify some more diplomatic correspondences with the State Dept?
If yes, why don't you verify with the State Dept that the post is a Hoax?

Well, we're back to square one, aren't we? All you have is an article, supposedly translated from a journal in Spanish, for which there is no further provenance.

Again, you want me to prove a negative. It cannot be done. I also know that, even if I had an archivist swear the putative letter does not exist in the collection, that you still would insist it is genuine and simply covered up by conspiracy.

Are you saying that all the internet resources are not reliable?

No, but there are more unreliable than reliable sources, unfortunately. I could slap some trash on my own Web site and cite it as evidence of something, but that would amount to no more than the jumble of half-baked accusations you have trotted out as "proof."

Why don't you be honest and admit that you just picked up what you like ?

Stop the presses! Pot calls kettle black! You are incapable of being honest about your sources. "It's such a good story that it would be a shame to try to verify it" seems to be your preferred method of operation.

I truly had no interest in Truman's relationship with the Vatican until you brought it up. It took only a few minutes to find verifiable sources in contradiction to your posting.

So, now you are admitting that you don't believe the History of Baptists.

From your posts, it seems you hold to a certain position about Baptist history that I do not believe is verifiable or, in some cases, tenable.

Roman Religion tortured and killed many Christian believers after condemning them as Heretics, and removed all the literatures and writings by them, then have accused them with Heresies which the victims never believed, never said.

Possibly. The victors get to write the history. It would be nice to know, from other sources, how the so-called "heretical" groups viewed themselves. But to try to make some of them fit a particular mold, in the absence of evidence, is going too far.

You never answered my question, Can the dogs change their habits of urinating anywhere and anytime?

Well, yes, it is is possible to housebreak a dog. I didn't know that was in dispute. A key piece of theology I have missed along the way.

Can the Idol worshippers change their habits of killing the True believers?

It appears to be possible if the church is divorced from temporal power.

Jesus may be wrong in saying this? A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, ]neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

No, it's a good rule of thumb.

No, you are trying to revert the issues of Hitler's Pope to the Truman's Pope. You try to bite any weak points.

Well, you make it so easy. You are the one who brought up Truman, after all.

You mentioned that Goering had the wedding at Protestant church, which is very mjinor on this issue, though Goering was born between Catholic and Protestant.

Minor? You posted a site that breathlessly "proved" the Nazis were "Christians" but you wanted to lay the blame at the feet of the Catholics.

There have been millions of lukewarm and fake Christians even among the Protestants or Baptists and they can easily join the Roman Religion, as you may want to.

See, there you go being hurtful again. If I wanted to join, I would; but I don't, so I won't. Are you recruiting for the Catholic Church? Such proseletyzing is frowned upon on this board, you know.

You conveniently evade my question, because your soul love to advocate the Idol worshippers and murderers. But please remember this, Our Great General Jesus Christ will come again and win over the wicked deceivers and the Mother of Harlots, the Babylon and the goddess worshippers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire! Where will you be at that time?

I don't think I have evaded a question, though my answers may have not been to your liking.

Where will I be? I am glad that Christ - and not you - will decide my fate.

You don't trust any articles against RCC, right?

Some I do, some I don't. It depends upon the issue and the evidence.

Oh! good you should have mentioned this earlier, that the Infallible Pope was wrong!

I'm not sure why I should have had to affirm something so obvious. You obviously don't understand the doctrine of papal infallibility, but it's one I find ludicrous in any case.

You may say that you are born again, but in my view you may not be as you cannot see the history properly like a man who licked the skin of the water melon thousand times but have never broken and eaten the inside of it

I have to commend you on your metaphor. Although I have a feeling too often you swallow the seeds and spit out the meat.

However, as I said before, God is my judge and not you. Don't you think it a just a bit presumptuous to judge my faith by some responses on a historical subject? Never mind - you think it's just fine.

I enjoy reading your comedy and childish faith.

Well, glad I could amuse you. I'm not sure what you mean by "childish faith," but I am of the opinion that if you are against it, it might be a good thing.

What I posted is ill-founded personal attacks and your posts are nice novels? Maybe for the angels of Devil!

I would point out the incongruence of that statement, but I'm sure it would be lost on you.

Sorry not to be deceived by your tactics!

Rats! Satan's plan foiled again!

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Always good advice. I suppose you mean that each of us should take it.

Your soul advocate the Idol Worshippers!

I don't recall having done that. Tell me, Eliyahu, are you always so angry at people you don't know? It is not good to let the sun go down on your wrath.

 

[Eliyahu]

rsr:

Well, we're back to square one, aren't we? All you have is an article, supposedly translated from a journal in Spanish, for which there is no further provenance.

Again, you want me to prove a negative. It cannot be done. I also know that, even if I had an archivist swear the putative letter does not exist in the collection, that you still would insist it is genuine and simply covered up by conspiracy.

No, you have to prove yours first thru Archives of White House or State Dept. Until that time your own posts are not proven.
You have not verified your own post yet!
Then we can check whether the same sources have the archives of what I posted or not too.

You are the one who asserted this in the post number 26:

No, your letter is a hoax. A fabrication. A lie

Then why do you insist on making believe the hoax letter is genuine?

How could you verify that my post is a hox and a lie?

How do you say that I insist on making believe the hoax is genuine? Please prove it!

Stop the presses! Pot calls kettle black! You are incapable of being honest about your sources. "It's such a good story that it would be a shame to try to verify it" seems to be your preferred method of operation.

This is a false accusation until you can prove your conclusion is true. As I mentioned above, please prove and verify your sources first, then prove my post is a Hoax, because you asserted it.

I truly had no interest in Truman's relationship with the Vatican until you brought it up. It took only a few minutes to find verifiable sources in contradiction to your posting.

You yourself confess the same method that I used, which you condemned awhile ago.

What was your verifiable sources? Have you checked with Archives of White House?

From your posts, it seems you hold to a certain position about Baptist history that I do not believe is verifiable or, in some cases, tenable.

Do you trust Trail of Blood ? If you have read any of History of Baptists, didn't it tell you that RCC tortured and killed many believers?

Possibly. The victors get to write the history. It would be nice to know, from other sources, how the so-called "heretical" groups viewed themselves. But to try to make some of them fit a particular mold, in the absence of evidence, is going too far.

Good to hear from you about the Victors' History. Some confessions by the Losers are rarely found and Bazaar Heraclides about Nestorius and Key of Truth about Paulicians are a few of them which were discovered around 1895, both of them portrays what they believed were quite different from what RCC have accused them to have believed as Heresies.

Well, yes, it is is possible to housebreak a dog. I didn't know that was in dispute. A key piece of theology I have missed along the way.

The Point is that Jesus told us how to discern which is a good tree and which is a bad tree, then bad tree cannot bear good fruits.
RCC couldn't but abstain from their appetite for the murder as the dogs cannot refrain from urinating anywhere and anytime.

It appears to be possible if the church is divorced from temporal power.

When they are divorced from the temporal power, they use the tactics of Proxy War, by hiring the secular politics like Nazis!

No, it's a good rule of thumb.

If you believe what Jesus said is correct and know about the true history of Believers and the Dark Age under Roman Catholic, it is quite simple to understand the Hitler's Pope, which is an extension of the tragic history.

Well, you make it so easy. You are the one who brought up Truman, after all.

I could bring it up as an extension of the story after WWII.
You could have said, " it might be a hoax" or at best "probably a Hoax" but later on you asserted with your own conclusion as if you had investigated quite a lot, that A Hoax, a Lie, Fabrication.

You have the Onus Probandi to prove that it is a Hoax!

Minor? You posted a site that breathlessly "proved" the Nazis were "Christians" but you wanted to lay the blame at the feet of the Catholics.

There are several points which you have not answered about the linkage between the dictators and RCC. How come Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Himler, Goebels, are all RCC? How come, Pacelli signed on the Concordat which specify RCC as the only recognized religion of Third Reich?
Still would you claim that RCC has nothing to do with Hitler or Third Reich? Who wrote(dictated from Hitler) Mein Kampf?

See, there you go being hurtful again. If I wanted to join, I would; but I don't, so I won't. Are you recruiting for the Catholic Church? Such proseletyzing is frowned upon on this board, you know.

No, Sir!

I don't think I have evaded a question, though my answers may have not been to your liking.

Where will I be? I am glad that Christ - and not you - will decide my fate.

Yes, you never commented on the main issues and posts which I showed you as the photos of Nazis, and the linkage between Catholic and Nazis.

Many people would say so. But the Bible says this:

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

RCC's are such and you advocate them, and therefore I recommended you to check about yourself.

Some I do, some I don't. It depends upon the issue and the evidence.


I'm not sure why I should have had to affirm something so obvious. You obviously don't understand the doctrine of papal infallibility, but it's one I find ludicrous in any case.

I have to commend you on your metaphor. Although I have a feeling too often you swallow the seeds and spit out the meat.

However, as I said before, God is my judge and not you. Don't you think it a just a bit presumptuous to judge my faith by some responses on a historical subject? Never mind - you think it's just fine.

If you are truly born again, you have a totally different view from others'
Your view on the world is changed. I am not a Judge for your destiny or faith at all, but just recommended you to do so as Paul did in 2 Cor 13:5.
On the contrary, you concluded and judged my post as a Hoax, a Fabrication, a Lie. You behaved as a Judge.

I would point out the incongruence of that statement, but I'm sure it would be lost on you.

Rats! Satan's plan foiled again!

Always good advice. I suppose you mean that each of us should take it.

I don't recall having done that. Tell me, Eliyahu, are you always so angry at people you don't know? It is not good to let the sun go down on your wrath.

Either consciously or unconsciously you have been advocating the Idol Worshippers, the Brutal Murders throughout the history.

Where did you find that I was angry? You conculde again and judge others! I have enjoyed confronting your childish comments. You are judging the people by your imagination and pretend to have a great verification for yourself, which is a nonsense. But I would not trust you and your posts anymore, sorry. I trust what Jesus said. a Corrupt Tree cannnot bring forth a good fruit. Do you believe this? If so, you can save a lot of time. Can you believe the Histiory of Baptists? A short and concise history is available here:

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0547.htm

Finally, I would explain my understanding as follows:

1. The key for understanding on the correspondence between Truman and Pacelli must be in the archives of State Dept and White House.
2. what you showed was just about after 1947. Is that the first corres between 2 men? Didn't they have any correspondence between them at all? I don't think they had the corres for the first time in 1947. There have been many sayings that Pius 12 might have been indicted as a War Criminal. Pacelli must have begged Truman for his life, for his face, and for the forgiveness of his crime involved in many activities of Nazis and Pascists Italy. After the exchange of a certain level of apology and exoneration, Truman might have started to call him as Holiness as he didn't want to enter into another war with the religion after spending the horrible years of war. This reasoning is quite plausible.
In the world of Diplomacy, some correspondences are disclosed immediately, but some are not. Especially some letters containing the personal condemnation are not released quite a long time. Some nice letters are often disclosed immediately, but some quarrelsome letters are hardly disclosed. Or sometimes the arguments relating to the territory issues are not disclosed for a very long time. So, one can hardly judge which one is true yet, though we may make much guesswork.
Until the whole things are disclosed, either party often disclosed only what is more favorable to their side. This is the reality of the Diplomatic world.

2. What you could argue against what I posted is that it contains certain grammatical errors on 2-3 spots, which might have been caused during the transmission, especially when it was unofficially released or obtained during the time when the copy machine was not available.
However, you can notice that what I posted is posted not only by the one which I mentioned, but also by bibletruth.org as well, and may be by some more. If you want to continue to claim that it is a Hoax and a fabrication, you must prove it by a reasonable effort of checking with the prime sources like White House and State Dept. Until then you remain as a groundless accuser as the Inquisitors did when they tortured the True believers.

You said:

No, your letter is a hoax. A fabrication. A lie

Then why do you insist on making believe the hoax letter is genuine?

 

[Eliyahu]

rsr said:

No, your letter is a hoax. A fabrication. A lie. All you have is an Internet reference supposedly translated from a journal that no one can find. What I supplied is an authenticated letter (there are three of them) from an official archive.

Are you a Supreme Court Judge?
Authenticated by whom?
Whose Archive? was it from White House or State Dept?

 

[4Given]

well, actually

The Truman letters that rsr mentioned are from the website http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/

This is an educational website run by scholars at the University of California at Santa Barbara. They are authenticated by John Woolley and Gerhard Peters at UCSB. This is probably about as unbiased as you can get. They get their documents from the sites that you demanded - that is official government archives. Therefore we can safely believe that the Truman letters are genuine. Unlike your "source"- a Baptist website with an axe to grind against the RCC.

 

[Eliyahu]

The Truman letters that rsr mentioned are from the website http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/

This is an educational website run by scholars at the University of California at Santa Barbara. They are authenticated by John Woolley and Gerhard Peters at UCSB. This is probably about as unbiased as you can get. They get their documents from the sites that you demanded - that is official government archives. Therefore we can safely believe that the Truman letters are genuine. Unlike your "source"- a Baptist website with an axe to grind against the RCC.

1. Would you show me that the website address of the government archives, please?

You guys claimed that you verified the verasity of them. So, would you let me know the address of your ultiamte source so that I may verify yours first?

2. I have got mine from this site,

The Bibletruth.org
http://www.thebibletruth.org/RomanCat.htm#anchor101728

3. Are you saying that your referred site is Inerrant and Infallible?


4. Does your referred site cover and have checked all the correspondendences between Truman and Pius 12 ?

5. You are saying Baptists are unreliable, but secular educational systems are reliable, right? Why do you come to this BB?, In order to convert them to the secular pagan religion?


I already mentioned the reasonable and plausible understanding about the correspondences. Roman religion has never apologized for their atrocities, never confessed the truth about their involvement in the Concordat, Truman government knew quite a lot about the problems with Pacelli, and they could indict Pacelli as a War criminal of WWII, then Pacelli must have begged Truman for his life, for his face, for the forgiveness of his crimes, then Truman had to accept the apology from him because he didn't want to enter another war with the religious insititutes, and he was afraid, if Catholic becomes another enemy of US, then RCC would turn to Communist Russia and China, therefore he would have compromised with a certain level of apology. Moreover, Truman must have realized that his job is to administer and defend USA, not the Christianity, though he himself was the Baptist.

Thereafter some nice letters were exchanged each other. Truman might have believed that he should follow the diplomatic practices and customs, to denote "Holiness."

Those letters that you referred to are dated 1947, which is far later after the WWII.
Such nice and courtesy letters are often easily disclosed even though they are diplomatic. But the letters of conflicts and arguments are not disclosed for a long time, even after the most of the diplomatic correspondences are released after re-classification of the secrecy.

This is quite plausible reasoning, I believe.


It will be quite interesting if we can check with the Archive of the White House and State Dept. ,even of CIA about the correspondences between Truman and Vatican, about the War Criminal Tribunal in Nuremberg, etc. Some day may come to reveal many things, but if not, God will disclose all things about Vatican and Pacelli.

 

[4Given]

the reason this matter concerns me...

Is that my Bible has this commandment as one of the 10 Big Ones:

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

I try to live by the 10 commandments. Do you? You seem to glory in bearing false witness against a man who is dead and gone and unable to defend himself. As stated before, the whole "Hitler's Pope" myth started in a play authored by ex-Nazi Rolf Hochhuth called "The Deputy". One would think that an ex-Nazi is not a very reliable source. The false witness spread from there - with the anti-Catholic secular media, anti-Catholics such as yourself, and disenchanted secular Catholics gleefully spreading the message that Pius XII supported the Third Reich.

Contemporary sources regarding the role of the Pope in World War II say that he was responsible for saving hundreds of thousands of Jews from the Holocaust. It wasn't until nearly 20 years after the war that this was even questioned.

Now people like you seize upon this myth because it agrees with your anti-RCC agenda.

It's comical, really, that you think "The Bible Truth" website is a more reliable source of Presidential papers then the University website http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/

I'm more interested in finding out the truth and living by God's Word. And one of his commandments - "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." I think the commandment can be extended to defending thy neighbor against slander. That's all I'm trying to do.

 

[Eliyahu]

Is that my Bible has this commandment as one of the 10 Big Ones:

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

I try to live by the 10 commandments. Do you? You seem to glory in bearing false witness against a man who is dead and gone and unable to defend himself.

As if I didn't!

How come you claim that I am a false witness without proof?
Your sources doesn't say that they checked out and proven all the correspondences during 1945-1947 thru Whitehouse or State Dept, but you are accusing me of groundless charges, Have you learned that technique of accusation from the Inquisitors? or from the Nazis?

As stated before, the whole "Hitler's Pope" myth started in a play authored by ex-Nazi Rolf Hochhuth called "The Deputy". One would think that an ex-Nazi is not a very reliable source. The false witness spread from there - with the anti-Catholic secular media, anti-Catholics such as yourself, and disenchanted secular Catholics gleefully spreading the message that Pius XII supported the Third Reich.

How come that guy Pacelli signed on the Concordat? Then become Holy See? Was the Holy See so much Blinded?
In 1933, already there was the fire in Berlin. Even though who set the fire may not be confirmed, the fact was that Nazis got the immense power already, and that's why Pacelli negotiated with Nazis.

Read this. Is this false accusation?

http://liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/1933Concordat.html

Your claim sounds like the one by which Idol worshippers could defend themselves.

Contemporary sources regarding the role of the Pope in World War II say that he was responsible for saving hundreds of thousands of Jews from the Holocaust. It wasn't until nearly 20 years after the war that this was even questioned.

Where are they gone?

Now people like you seize upon this myth because it agrees with your anti-RCC agenda.

It's comical, really, that you think "The Bible Truth" website is a more reliable source of Presidential papers then the University website http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/

I'm more interested in finding out the truth and living by God's Word. And one of his commandments - "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." I think the commandment can be extended to defending thy neighbor against slander. That's all I'm trying to do.

I told you that we need the ultimate confirmation from the Prime sources, White House and State Dept. You have never brought any.

It is very much comical that you trust the secular sources more than the Christian sources.

However, I have never argued against the verasity of your posts or sources. I even tolerated the statement " probably hoax" However, rsr asserted that my post is " Hoax, Fabrication, Lie"

Again, I never raise any doubt about your posts, but raised the question, does it cover all the correspondences between Vatican and Whitehouse even including the period during 1945-1947? Could you verify with them?

I am not unreasonable to compare and discuss all the things after all the related information is brought on the table. Therefore I explained about the Plausible interpretation of the materials.

You couldn't bring any further sources closer to the Prime sources at all, but try to accuse me of false witnessing. I told you the post and so on. My Lord doesn't accuse me so, but the Satan always have tried to accuse me as you are trying to!

Now I want to ask you, in the same logic and manner as you guys used,

Have you learned that technique of accusation from the Inquisitors?

Check out your blood line and the genealogy of your ancestors.

How come Pacelli was the one who worked out the Concordat with Italy to get Roman Catholic recognized as the only religion in Italy in 1929, and then another Concordat with Nazis in 1933?

 

[Eliyahu]

Have these all happened despite the objection by Pius 12?

http://www.tenc.net/vatican/cpixa.htm


In this case your eyes may be witnessing false. Check whether your eyes are Hoax!

Was Jesus wrong when He said this?


Neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. ( Mt 7:18)

 

[Eliyahu]

I try to live by the 10 commandments.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything ( Exodus 20:4)

DO YOU LIVE BY THIS?

 

[rsr]

No, you have to prove yours first thru Archives of White House or State Dept. Until that time your own posts are not proven.
You have not verified your own post yet!
Then we can check whether the same sources have the archives of what I posted or not too.

Are we stuck on a merry-go-round? Your job is to prove the authenticity of the original letter. You have in no way, shape, form or fashion.

You yourself confess the same method that I used, which you condemned awhile ago.

What was your verifiable sources? Have you checked with Archives of White House?

No, I berated not your form of research but for its paucity of authentication. The letters, by the way, would not be in the "White House Archive." They would be at the Truman Library.

The site I referenced is an academic one with no particular ax to grind that I know of. The Truman Library records that it has the letters of Myron Taylor, who was representative of both FDR and Truman to the pope.

Further, we know that Truman elevated the representative to the pope to full ambassador status, despite widespread opposition by Protestants in this country. In addition, we know that both Truman and Pius wrote prefaces to Taylor's edition of FDR and Pius' wartime correspondence.

Sounds like a lot better provenance than what you've given.

Do you trust Trail of Blood?

No. I never knew such credence was required.

If you have read any of History of Baptists, didn't it tell you that RCC tortured and killed many believers?

It indeed appears so. That's what often happens when religious groups gain access to secular power.

RCC couldn't but abstain from their appetite for the murder as the dogs cannot refrain from urinating anywhere and anytime.

I am curious why you keep using that analogy? Is it cultural or what?

There are several points which you have not answered about the linkage between the dictators and RCC. How come Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Himler, Goebels, are all RCC? How come, Pacelli signed on the Concordat which specify RCC as the only recognized religion of Third Reich?

I believe I answered that. What was Stalin? What was Mao? The Khmer Rouge? The Serbs? The Americans who conducted a genocidal war against the Native Americans?

Still would you claim that RCC has nothing to do with Hitler or Third Reich?

Don't believe I ever said that. Nothing] is a very big word in this instance and certainly would be inappropriate.

Who wrote(dictated from Hitler) Mein Kampf?

I'll bite; I've always thought it was Hitler.

RCC's are such and you advocate them, and therefore I recommended you to check about yourself.

Thanks for the concern. I seem to be all right, though I am not advocating for them.

Either consciously or unconsciously you have been advocating the Idol Worshippers, the Brutal Murders throughout the history.

Nope, just for truth.

Where did you find that I was angry?

I was trying to give you the benefit the the doubt because I could not conceive a mature adult using such abusive language, such faulty reasoning, such disregard for proper evidence unless he or she were proufoundly distrurbed about something.

I have enjoyed confronting your childish comments.

Always glad to please and provide enjoyment.

1. The key for understanding on the correspondence between Truman and Pacelli must be in the archives of State Dept and White House.

Translation: "I can't find it, so it must be somewhere else."

However, you can notice that what I posted is posted not only by the one which I mentioned, but also by bibletruth.org as well, and may be by some more.

Multiple copies of the same junk is still junk. Some independent verification would be nice. BTW, why are you so enamored of a Seventh Day Adventist Web site?

 

[rsr]

I am not unreasonable to compare and discuss all the things after all the related information is brought on the table.

Someone has kidnapped our dear Eliyahu and replaced him with a reasonable person.

My Lord doesn't accuse me so, but the Satan always have tried to accuse me as you are trying to! ... Have you learned that technique of accusation from the Inquisitors?

Ah, there he is. The old Eliyahu must have been napping.

Check out your blood line and the genealogy of your ancestors.

Eh? Is there a charge of miscegnation here? What's the point of that statement?

 

[Eliyahu]

Someone has kidnapped our dear Eliyahu and replaced him with a reasonable person.



Ah, there he is. The old Eliyahu must have been napping.



Eh? Is there a charge of miscegnation here? What's the point of that statement?

You can never justify for your false accusation!

Hoax, Fabrication, Lie! Have you learned that Tactics from Inquisitors?

Answer me on my questions!

Is it all that you could bring about? The only site of the univeristy? Why can't you ask them the ultimate source?

You False Accuser! Your words, Hoax, Fabrication, Lie like to return to you !

 

[Eliyahu]

Until you can prove the followings you are the false accuser!

rsr said:

No, your letter is a hoax. A fabrication. A lie. All you have is an Internet reference supposedly translated from a journal that no one can find. What I supplied is an authenticated letter (there are three of them) from an official archive.

Are you a Supreme Court Judge?
Authenticated by whom?
Whose Archive? was it from White House or State Dept?
Which Official? Official by themselves?

I showed you the source as much as you showed your site, and I explained the plausible reasoning on that!
Yet, you don't understand your false accusation! How miserable you are!

 

[Eliyahu]

Further, we know that Truman elevated the representative to the pope to full ambassador status, despite widespread opposition by Protestants in this country. In addition, we know that both Truman and Pius wrote prefaces to Taylor's edition of FDR and Pius' wartime correspondence.

Ridiculous!

Do you know the meaning of Full Ambassador Status? Do you know when the diplomatic relationship was established between US and Vatican? 1984! What was the problem between US and Vatican? Do you know when Vatican and Israel established the Diplomatic relationship? 1994!

Why did the Protestants oppose the Diplomatic Relationship between US and Vatican? Especially Baptists?

 

[Eliyahu]

Are we stuck on a merry-go-round? Your job is to prove the authenticity of the original letter. You have in no way, shape, form or fashion.

I have proven in the same manner as you did for your own.

No, I berated not your form of research but for its paucity of authentication. The letters, by the way, would not be in the "White House Archive." They would be at the Truman Library.

How can you be sure? Have you checked with White House or State Dept?

Or your own guesswork?

The site I referenced is an academic one with no particular ax to grind that I know of. The Truman Library records that it has the letters of Myron Taylor, who was representative of both FDR and Truman to the pope.

Would you show me any proof from Truman Library?
1) about the authenticity of yours
2) about the falsity of mine

You have the responsibility to prove your own statement;
"Hoax, Fabrication, Lie"

Otherwise, you made a wrong judgment, right?

Further, we know that Truman elevated the representative to the pope to full ambassador status, despite widespread opposition by Protestants in this country. In addition, we know that both Truman and Pius wrote prefaces to Taylor's edition of FDR and Pius' wartime correspondence.

Sounds like a lot better provenance than what you've given.

I already pointed out your ignorance about the Diplomatic Relationship. Ambassador is the term for the Envoy after the Diplomatic Relationship is entered. Taylor could be just a Special Envoy, not the Ambassador.

No. I never knew such credence was required.

You don't believe the History of Baptists, which I do believe.
You may be a baptist by mouth, not by heart.
This is important, because Lord Jesus said, A Corrupt Tree cannot bear good fruits, and Pacelli showed his link with Hitler by signing on the Concordat,and many photos proved the linkage between Catholic and Nazis and Mussolini's Fascists.

Multiple copies of the same junk is still junk. Some independent verification would be nice. BTW, why are you so enamored of a Seventh Day Adventist Web site?

Do you think SDA's are always wrong? They oppose to the Idols and Idol worships, they fight well against RCC. What's wrong with it?

 

[4Given]

Eliyahu

It's hate-filled people like you who give Christians a bad name.

You're not interested in the truth. You're only interested in advancing your agenda.

I'm reading another book called "The Defamation of Pius XII" by Ralph McInerny. You might try reading a book sometime rather than your conspiracy websites.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[Eliyahu]

It's hate-filled people like you who give Christians a bad name.

You're not interested in the truth. You're only interested in advancing your agenda.

I'm reading another book called "The Defamation of Pius XII" by Ralph McInerny. You might try reading a book sometime rather than your conspiracy websites.

No, Sorry, I must tell you, that I don't hate the people, but the Doctrines and Deeds of Roman Catholic!

Our Lord hated these things:

Heb 1:8
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows

Rev 2
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.


What do so many photos testify for you?

http://spirituallysmart.com/nazi.html

IS RCC a good tree?

Was Pacelli a nice man?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

http://spirituallysmart.com

Eliyahu, is this a serious site that you refer too as an authority on Catholicism? Are you really this gullible? This is nothing but a conspiracy theory site…and a funny one at that…I really enjoyed the ‘Red Mass’ pictures! Thanks for the comedy break during my lunch break!

-

 

[Eliyahu]

http://spirituallysmart.com

Eliyahu, is this a serious site that you refer too as an authority on Catholicism? Are you really this gullible? This is nothing but a conspiracy theory site…and a funny one at that…I really enjoyed the ‘Red Mass’ pictures! Thanks for the comedy break during my lunch break!

-

Not all. I don't trust any human beings, mostly my focus is the difference and contradiction between Catholic practices and Holy Scriptures, but in this thread, could you deny these photos?

Jesuit-Hitler-Pope linkage.

http://www.spirituallysmart.com/nazi.html