37818
Well-Known Member
I am not the authority, and never made any such claim.
Present this false gospel you have accused me of.
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Holy Father according to who?
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
Present this false gospel you have accused me of.
Please present the false gospel you accuse us of having. (Your previous post, #39, failed in this miserably)
You Accused us first.
We present and teach the gospel as written in scripture:
ACTS 2. (I would paste the whole thing, but thats alot of text)
22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25“For David says of Him,
‘I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;
FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26‘THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;
MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,
NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28‘YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;
YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’
29“Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30“And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32“This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34“For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’
36“Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
Acts 13
16Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said,
“Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: 17“The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out from it. 18“For a period of about forty years He put up with them in the wilderness. 19“When He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land as an inheritance—all of which took about four hundred and fifty years.20“After these things He gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. 21“Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. 22“After He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, ‘I HAVE FOUND DAVID the son of Jesse, A MAN AFTER MY HEART, who will do all My will.’ 23“From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, 24after John had proclaimed before His coming a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25“And while John was completing his course, he kept saying, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not He. But behold, one is coming after me the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.’
26“Brethren, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent. 27“For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him. 28“And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. 29“When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. 30“But God raised Him from the dead; 31and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. 32“And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’ 34“As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.’ 35“Therefore He also says in another Psalm, ‘YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLYONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.’ 36“For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay; 37but He whom God raised did not undergo decay. 38“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. 40“Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
41‘BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.’”
The smallest summary of the gospel would be the OUR FATHER in Matthew 6
37818
Well-Known Member
What specifically is not true, and why?
37818
Well-Known Member
So am I to understand you do not believe works are needed in order to be saved. That it is faith in Christ's payment for our sin and in His bodily resurrection. As per John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." As the Apostle John explained, "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." And so by God's grace, not of works done by you, but faith in the finished work of His Son, you know you now have eternal life.
We are going to go in circles when you flip flop between God's motivation and the goal of Christianity.
The knee jerk reaction to reading this is typically misrepresentation so please review these 3 rules carefully.
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.
This is to settle the idea that I'm truly relying on God alone in true Monergism while point at and VILIFY the other guy and saying he is Palagian who thinks he doesn't need God to be saved.
God's motivation to save anyone is MERCY. No quality of a person. Paul for example was totally Faithless and not doing Good works.
Last time we went around in circles you ended with:
"Which means you do not understand grace. I cannot make you understand what you fail to understand. It is not in my power. If one must work to either get or keep a gift, it is not a gift, it is not grace."
To which I replied:
"If someone mails you a bunch of pornography as a gift then it truly is yours correct?"
TO which you dodged without a YES OR NO saying:
Matthew 12:25,
". . . And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, . . .for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. . . ." -- Matthew 12:34.
Matthew 15:18, ". . . But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. . . ."
We CAN PRESSUME you mean YES.
We can stretch it out to:
Matthew 12
37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
SO, saying something can be a GOOD WORK.
Even from your last post just now, MAKING GOD A LIAR is obviously a EVIL WORK a SIN. ERGO not sinning, doing the GOOD WORK is required.
If we hear even a RUMOR that when you say FAITH ALONE it is faith that has LOVE in it. Its a PASS we believe in "FAITH ALONE".
When they say we are saved by faith apart of works we understand they are talking about works of the law, Jewish precepts like getting circumcision.
But if you mash it up to mean apart from ALL GOOD WORKS rather than just apart from works you inadvertently throwing LOVE under the bus.
GOD IS LOVE. and we MEAN IT. So if you say you don't need LOVE for salvation, That DIRECTLY equates to YOU DO NOT NEED GOD for salvation.
It might help to repeat that a couple of times , Theses guys actually believe GOD is actually and really is Love. Like seriously believe GOD is LOVE. Like we are not kidding GOD is LOVE.
We believe as you do. It is the faith we have that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior, God Himself Incarnated on this earth. That is the first step. Then comes our chance to work through this salvation offered to us by seeking to live holy and pleasing lives for God. One follows the other, not one thing alone as you claim - but everything included. We have our part to play in our own salvation, but I want to make clear that it all starts with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ - without that we have nothing as Christians.
Let us go to the sacraments and the concept of grace. We see them as a way to live that life, but for some reason you disregard their reality. You claim only faith is needed, but there are things like the sacrament of marriage that really exist. If you have faith and you do not marry but practice fornication on a regular basis, that is just not going to cut it. We get grace from being married, by living in that holy state. This grace is a free gift from God, inherent in the sacrament of marriage, we receive it because it is there. It is the same grace that you receive, a free gift from God. We see all the sacraments in that way. I would think that you believe the same way in these things, you just don't or won't call them sacraments.
Does receiving Jesus in the sacrament of Holy Communion impart grace? You bet it does. Taking the giver of grace, of all graces into your body can't help but do that. Once again, it is the free gift offered to us. "This is my body" and "This is my blood" He said - and He meant every one of those words. But of course when one sees this sacrament as only a "symbol" none of that matters, and that my friend is where you miss an important part of the gospel.
I think sometimes when people look at the Catholic faith tradition they get all caught up in some of the things they don't particularly like. But at it's core it is people trying to live holy lives within the context of what the Church teaches. It goes like this Jesus, then His Church, and then us.
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37818
Well-Known Member
And my acusation being false how? Specify.
In my opening post was about the title given your church leader. I am of the opinion that it is blatantly contrary to Christ's teaching. And then I cited the Apostle Paul's warning to the Corinthian church.
In the PROLOGUE of the PDF page 23 of your church's catechism uses the title "The Holy Father, Pope."
37818
Well-Known Member
Here is a point of disagreement. I do not believe the concept sacraments in conection with God's grace. And even accepting the use of the term as applied to those works of faith, they do not bestow the grace of the gospel of grace in any way. It is not according to God's word to believe they do in any way. If we agree on this fine. Where we do not agree on this. We can take one at a time, and discuss it. I believe the two major points which would be over the two works of faith, the rememberance, called the Thanksgiving, using the term "Eucharist." And the immersion, water baptism. Neither are parts of the gospel (Christ's death, burial and resurrection), but are commanded and accompany the gospel.
The 'Rev' has made this accusation against the Catholic Church for YEARS! When asked to present his evidence always silence. When presented with the facts that NOBODY was toting bibles prior to the printing press more silence. When asked to present evidence that anyone was using a bible with 66 books more silence.
Good grief, what do you think the Mass is all about? We begin our worship with a call to repentance which we are able to do precisely because of "Christ's death, burial, and resurrection". We are basically asking forgiveness IN HIS NAME ONLY. And then it's on to 2 readings from the OT and a gospel reading from one of the four.
Finally, we take to heart His command to "Do this in memory of me". Do what? To re-enact that fateful last period of Christ's life just as He said for us to do. (Does not your Bible instruct you likewise?) Time is transcended and we are there at the foot of the Cross no less!
That my friend is the core of the Catholic faith tradition. If anyone is holding true to Christ's gospel it is us and I wholeheartedly reject any assertion by you that it is otherwise.
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Because such a thing is not unprecedented according to the Scriptures in any way, shape, manner, or form.
1. God called Abraham father; "No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations" (Gen 17:5-6).
2.The Apostle Paul calls Abraham, Father; "follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, 'I have made you father of many nations.' He is our father in the sight of God" (Rom 4:16).
3. James calls Abraham father: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar” (Jm 2:21)
4.Jesus calls Abraham, father; "And he cried out, Father Abraham, have pity on me" (Lk.16:24).
5. Stephen calls Abraham father; “the God of glory appeared to our father Abraham” (Acts 7:1).
If your opinion is correct, then the Scripture verses I posted above are just plain wrong because those folks are doing the same thing we are. So who is right, the Scriptures or you? You see, it's what is in one's head, what is one's thought process about this issue. If we looking at the Pope or our Priest's as God Himself we would be wrong - but we are not doing that. Our position is the one that is ultimately sustained by the Scriptures, not yours.
Rockson
Active Member
Your holding that the Institutional concept of what you call "church" is the exclusive way God works through his people. First of all none of us lived in all those 1600 years. I think we'd be pretty presumptuous to assume we know of everything that when on in the hearts of men through all that time.
Sorry but when a religious system tries to tell me that an earthly man (outside of Christ) is my spiritual father or head which you'd tell me the Pope is it indeed is time to go another direction.
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted Matt 23: 10,12
37818
Well-Known Member
I am of the point of view that the Catholic mass is a key part of its false gospel. The missinterpretation of Jesus' metaphor as a literal. Hence transubstanciation teaching. My understanding is the presence of Christ is the body of believers (Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12; 1 Corinthians 10:17) not in or being the bread or the cup. We need to discuss our difference in understand on this. Point by point. Not just we disagree on this, but particularly why each view is held. A type of literal understanding versus a symbolic understanding.
37818
Well-Known Member
No. Calling a parent father was not what Jesus taught against. But against any kind of stand in, or as a medation for God. Note His argument, ". . . call not any one your father upon the earth; for one is your Father, he who is in the heavens." (Matthew 23:9; John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5).
Cant help mention the ridiculous 'proofs' given for Baptist 'perpetuity' in the Baptist Only forums. Even you Baptist admit there is no proof and NO groups down through church history that looked like your so called NT churches. You just assume because you exist that there must have been. None of the group's that existed apart from the Catholic Church looked anything like present day Baptist. I can quote your own Baptist historians stating EXACTLY that fact
the proponents [of Baptist Successionism], writes Fr. Dwight Longenecker, “the fact that there is no historical proof for their theory simply shows how good the Catholic Church was at persecution and cover-up. Baptist Successionism can never be disproved because all that is required for their succession to be transmitted was a small group of faithful people somewhere at some time who kept the flame of the true faith alive. The authors of this “history” skim happily over the heretical beliefs of their supposed forefathers in the faith. It is sufficient that all these groups were opposed to, and persecuted by, the Catholics.”
Thankfully intellectually honest Baptists, such as James McGoldrick who was once himself a believer in Baptist successionism are conceding that this “trail of blood” view is, frankly, bogus. McGoldrick writes:
Extensive graduate study and independent investigation of church history has, however, convinced [the author] that the view he once held so dear has not been, and cannot be, verified. On the contrary, surviving primary documents render the successionist view untenable. . . . Although free church groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the 17th century in Holland and England. They are Protestants, heirs of the reformers. (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History [1994],
Ooops!!!
Thankfully intellectually honest Baptists, such as James McGoldrick who was once himself a believer in Baptist successionism are conceding that this “trail of blood” view is, frankly, bogus. McGoldrick writes:
Extensive graduate study and independent investigation of church history has, however, convinced [the author] that the view he once held so dear has not been, and cannot be, verified. On the contrary, surviving primary documents render the successionist view untenable. . . . Although free church groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the 17th century in Holland and England. They are Protestants, heirs of the reformers. (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History [1994],
Ooops!!!
1 corinthians 4
14I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.
I BECAME YOUR FATHER THROUGH THE GOSPEL.
Please tell us Paul is out of bounds. You are going to here the flock called children plenty of places. With folks being "admonish you as my beloved children" Pay attention to that last line do you have imitators of Paul?
Steph, the biggest hurdle your going to have especially someone like me. Is the Character of God who we say is Love.
Even being Catholic I'm required to follow my good conscience as the very heart where God communicates to me personally so much so that If my good conscience was not for being catholic and if I were to disregard it, I would be committing a sin against God.
I suggest you give us the complete gospel as you understand it, and praying to God of course never hurts. I've attended baptist services the whole thing is beautiful and all but when it gets down to the details certain things get slipped through that make me think, man this can't be right.
Never-mind the danger of false GOSPELS, flat out FALSE GODS.
For example, Calvinism very prevalent in baptist ministries almost infiltrated. I believe God loves everyone REALLY, Sometimes I have to emphasize underline, circle twice the word "really". Their God has same name, same name tag, we claim same source of scripture, absolutely different person.
What are you bringing to the table what kind of ideas that might have been tainted by them? Your own group is divided against itself.
I can share the same exact character of God with plenty of non-catholics they know what I mean, their God is good and loves everyone.
But character of God can be next to diabolical as long as I carry a BAPTIST brand name I'm not worst than a Catholic?
Is your God so angry he believe everyone deserves to go to hell?
Did he take his whole fury and anger that you deserved and poured out his wrath on Jesus?
The idea God is so ticked off at everyone he tortures Jesus to satisfy whatever "gods" has higher than himself, You are not going to get anywhere with me trying to sugar coat any evil act and attributing it to God.
The toughest thing you got going is can you convince us to serve sugar-coated evil when our own faith says I got to fight my own faith and to follow my good conscience.
You worried about stuff like POPE. He is not the big dog. Clergy is important and serves purpose. Some of the titles you will see is servant to the servants of God. The heavy hitter is what they call a SAINT. The SAINT is like a Jedi, can be a loose cannon. The titles are meaningless, the guy is fearless. She could be a prayer fanatic. They share in God's love and only want the best for everyone else.
The guy we hate the most, the person we can't stand, chronic sinner, they look at that as treasure, child of God, They see Jesus in there.
I think you need to show a little more confidence about what you got is such a good thing rather than expected denial of it.
If I had a diamond that was worth millions of dollars. I don't lead my first step with a doubt, well this is worth millions I SERIOUSLY DOUBT he's going to want this. You know a person is going to want it. Its only because YOU BELIEVE IT and your perspective reflects off that.
You need to handle the word of God like if you believed it worth more than billions, more than anything on earth.
You can exude such a great love for Jesus Christ its not going to matter what the other guy has.
I'm not there yet brother. Point being even when I share the word of God I often reflect on my own sincerity and my lacking in what God deserves. SINCERITY. Faith can save person, without a doubt. Its Love and Hope that hangs by a thread to seek greater faith. Even the apostles would say Lord please increase our faith.
SINCERITY SINCERITY SINCERITY. You know that phrase HONEST TO GOD. There is a real meaning to that phrase honest to God too.
Sometimes we don't have have enough mercy for ourselves to want to allow God to see it.
When I drop that guard and "surrender" to God its a beautiful thing.
Maybe you can forget what I am for a minute, Focus on what I ought to be in Jesus Christ.
37818
Well-Known Member
There are Baptists and there are Baptists. The New Testament church and the churches have existed since the 1st century. My Baptist view is that Baptist churches are [to be] New Testament churches. The Apostolic authority is the New Testament alone [the 27 books of the 66].
37818
Well-Known Member
I cannot make those who do not what to hear to hear. There are types of parents. And there is only One God the Father. Jesus did not forbid calling a parent father. But did forbid making other men intermediaries to God by calling them father. ". . . call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. . . ." -- Matthew 23:9 [John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5]