honest question to PB's and Reformed's

[kyredneck]

no. all is not all if the word only applies to a portion of it.

He said, "ALL were saints who had received jesus in this life", never mind that there is no scripture to back that up.

He, along with a multitude of others, has placed no thought into what Christ was revealing in Jn 3:8, or 10:16, or what's revealed in 1:13, or Col 1:26,27, or Ro 2:13-15.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Hmmmmm, please try to understand the position that Old Baptists take on this (through our understanding of scripture). Namely that the great message of grace which is so firmly believed and preached by Old Schoolers declares that one may be a recipient of the mercy of God without hearing the report of it through the gospel and even without fully understanding what has taken place in his heart.

Therefore there is no special cases necessary other than being chosen before the foundations of the world.Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: There my brother is your special case.....its called election. And I know your a Calvinist so even you can appreciate it......well maybe not all Calvinists. :laugh:

I don't think this can excuse not hearing the gospel and by Gods grace responding. Later Paul follows up with Ephesians 1:13 13*In him you also, when you heard ethe word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, fwere sealed with the gpromised Holy Spirit.

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture please. Present something tangible in lieu of your parroting, if that's possible for you to do. Don't shotgun, present one point at a time from scripture.

Do you not have Bible software from which you can c & p? I can direct you to where you can download electronic Bibles for free.

great Commission matthew to be done UNTIL he returns again!

paul in Romans Lord commands us to take the message, to preacg it to ALL men

John 3:16 whoever hers and believes unto Jesus they are saved, right?

We don't know who will be saved, so NO vese states 'just preach to the elect", for ONLY God knows whom they are!

 

[Yeshua1]

Hmmmmm, please try to understand the position that Old Baptists take on this (through our understanding of scripture). Namely that the great message of grace which is so firmly believed and preached by Old Schoolers declares that one may be a recipient of the mercy of God without hearing the report of it through the gospel and even without fully understanding what has taken place in his heart.

Therefore there is no special cases necessary other than being chosen before the foundations of the world.Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: There my brother is your special case.....its called election. And I know your a Calvinist so even you can appreciate it......well maybe not all Calvinists. :laugh:

I would see those 'special cases" as indeed God election of those persons to be found in jesus, atonedfor by his death on their behalf, but if you are NOT in that special category, then saved by grace alone thru faith alone still remains!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't think this can excuse not hearing the gospel and by Gods grace responding. Later Paul follows up with Ephesians 1:13 13*In him you also, when you heard ethe word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, fwere sealed with the gpromised Holy Spirit.

Are there ANY verses that clearly state thatone can be saved bygod apart from receiving jesus thru faith as our Messiah/Saviour/Lord?

I cannot find any!

 

[kyredneck]

I don't think this can excuse not hearing the gospel.....

So you hold to hardline restrictivism, the unevangelized have no hope?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't think this can excuse not hearing the gospel and by Gods grace responding. Later Paul follows up with Ephesians 1:13 13*In him you also, when you heard ethe word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, fwere sealed with the gpromised Holy Spirit.

OK so, then explain this to me in detail .....if infants, the feeble minded, and the heathen must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, I would surmise that you have relegated them to hell then, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

So you hold to hardline restrictivism, the unevangelized have no hope?

No, as a calvinist, I hold that God will make sure that His elect will somehow/someway get the message, and he will sue that to save them and confirm their election was of God!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So you hold to hardline restrictivism, the unevangelized have no hope?

Thats what I would label either Hyper Calvinism or Hyper Arminiasm.....and I dont use these terms loosely. But having stood in debate with these Hardliners, thats what I am forced to conclude. Very Very Frustrating!

 

[pinoybaptist]

OK so, then explain this to me in detail .....if infants, .....must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, I would surmise that you have relegated them to hell then, correct?

you know how babies smile in their sleep ? they're being told by their angel that they were elect of God. you know how they sometimes look like they're about to cry, and then, all of a sudden they seem to get over whatever it was and start to smile ? they were told they were not going to go past babyhood but they're going to heaven to see Jesus.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, as a calvinist, I hold that God will make sure that His elect will somehow/someway get the message, and he will sue that to save them and confirm their election was of God!

Y, can you show me that in scripture?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

you know how babies smile in their sleep ? they're being told by their angel that they were elect of God. you know how they sometimes look like they're about to cry, and then, all of a sudden they seem to get over whatever it was and start to smile ? they were told they were not going to go past babyhood but they're going to heaven to see Jesus.:smilewinkgrin:

And here I thought it had something to do with gas! :laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

And here I thought it had something to do with gas! :laugh:

What verse/passage states the God will save all or any babies/infants though?

I hold that He does, but where is that scripture then?

 

[kyredneck]

No, as a calvinist, I hold that God will make sure that His elect will somehow/someway get the message, and he will sue that to save them and confirm their election was of God!

Scripture please.

 

[Yeshua1]

Y, can you show me that in scripture?

Of those able to believe unto salvation, they still have to hear to believe that report!
Didn't paul state that in Romans?

 

[kyredneck]

"This debate over whether or not the church functions in a redemptive or pastoral role goes back as far as the third century. Cyprian’s famous dictum, Extra ecclesiam nulla salus – “There is no salvation outside the church” – identifies the logical basis of the “means of grace” position. Those who argue that eternal life is mediated through the Christian gospel and/or Christian ordinances are reasoning from the premise that the church is a redemptive institution."

Christ The Only Mediator by Elder Michael Gowens

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"This debate over whether or not the church functions in a redemptive or pastoral role goes back as far as the third century. Cyprian’s famous dictum, Extra ecclesiam nulla salus – “There is no salvation outside the church” – identifies the logical basis of the “means of grace” position. Those who argue that eternal life is mediated through the Christian gospel and/or Christian ordinances are reasoning from the premise that the church is a redemptive institution."

Christ The Only Mediator by Elder Michael Gowens

I LOVE Larry, keep them coming:thumbs::godisgood:

We believe this issue is crucial, not peripheral, to the integrity of the gospel. Is the Lord Jesus Christ the one and only mediator (i.e. means, medium, instrument) of salvation, or is salvation mediated through the agency of gospel preaching, the sinner’s exercise of faith and repentance, or participation in the sacraments? Is Christ or the “church” the medium of eternal life? That was the root theological issue behind the Primitive/Missionary division, and it is still a question of no small importance to Christian orthodoxy

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

So you hold to hardline restrictivism, the unevangelized have no hope?

OK so, then explain this to me in detail .....if infants, the feeble minded, and the heathen must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, I would surmise that you have relegated them to hell then, correct?

As of right now that is my belief. I hope this isn't the case, but feelings aside I know of no other verse that states otherwise.

 

[kyredneck]

As of right now that is my belief. I hope this isn't the case, but feelings aside I know of no other verse that states otherwise.

I suggest you're inserting eternal consequences into passages where temporal consequences are actually the case.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

I didn't make my position clear enough, I believe that exceptions are made for babies infants and possibly mentally I'll, however I would not apply that to "heathens" aka the biblical ignorant