Honest, Studied and Converted free willers?

[Dale-c]

Just to show you how silly your statistics are...we are dealing with TRUE BELIEVERS...not Americans! Try dealing with the issue at hand, and quit erecting strawmen. The majority of believers...not Americans...are not calvinists.

Who knows who all the "true believers" are?
God's Kingdom is NOT a democracy!
Furthermore there have been times in our country's history where calvinists were a majority in the mainline denominations.

So, were they right then but now that popular opinion has changed we now have a free will?

 

[webdog]

Who knows who all the "true believers" are?
God's Kingdom is NOT a democracy!

Who said it was?

Furthermore there have been times in our country's history where calvinists were a majority in the mainline denominations.

When? I don't care about our country's history...I'm talking about the minority of believers being calvinists, regardless of country.

So, were they right then but now that popular opinion has changed we now have a free will?

When was "then"?

 

[Dale-c]

Try about 1760. During the great awakening most of the mainline denomiations, including most baptists would have held to the doctrines of grace.
I of course exclude Catholicism because they believed in free will just as modern baptists do.

 

[J.D.]

Let me share what my pastor, Joey Faust told me when I asked something like predestination vs. Freewill a long time ago. It was this:
Who's view are we talking about:
God's - He knew it was going to happen. Even makes it to happen.
Us - We make the choice. (Freewill)

My thoughts are that since we're not to try to ascend to God's Omniscience.
Let's look at it as we as people should, Freewill.
-

Hello John and welcome to the forum. I would like to challenge you to carefully think about what you said and make some logical conclusions. You said "Let's look at it as we as people should". And how should people look at truth - through man's eyes, or God's eyes? You said "God's [view] - He knew it was going to happen. Even makes it to happen." This is a true statement. Why shouldn't we look at it this way if it's the truth? And how are we ascending to God's omniscience if He's revealed it in scripture?

Man's will is not free to serve God until Jesus frees it.

John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[webdog]

Try about 1760. During the great awakening most of the mainline denomiations, including most baptists would have held to the doctrines of grace.
I of course exclude Catholicism because they believed in free will just as modern baptists do.

Can you supply a source?

 

[Jarthur001]

Exactly! You are laying it in there from your Calvinist theology.

in other words the Word of God.

And "fate" as well, right? See how the Greek gods are like the God you worship? The Greek gods predestined/foreordained everything for their own glory and pleasure -- same as yours!

YAHWEH is not a Greek God...and it was YAHWEH that placed those woulds that you dodged into His Word. And...it was YAHWEH that says that it was HIS glory and pleasure...and for you to mock the Bible...shows your heart

Now see, in all of this I have NEVER claimed that there is no place for predestination. What I have said is the we exercise free will, are foreseen in God's foreknowledge, and He "adapts" His plan accordingly as it causes us to be "conformed to the image of His dear Son."

When did God forknow what He knows? Was it before He made, or after He made?

He didn't choose us to salvation but once He foreknew of it

why do you not believe the Bible on this?

as seen in this verse

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

Election is TO salvation...so therefore salvation comes AFTER election.

 

[npetreley]

Here's a portion of the history of the god Zeus.

According to legend, Metis, the goddess of prudence, was the first love of Zeus. At first she tried in vain to escape his advances, but in the end succumbed to his endeavor, and from their union Athena was conceived. Gaia warned Zeus that Metis would bear a daughter, whose son would overthrow him. On hearing this Zeus swallowed Metis, the reason for this was to continue to carry the child through to the birth himself. Hera (his wife and sister) was outraged and very jealous of her husband's affair, also of his ability to give birth without female participation. To spite Zeus she gave birth to Hephaestus parthenogenetically (without being fertilized) and it was Hephaestus who, when the time came, split open the head of Zeus, from which Athena emerged fully armed.

Sounds a lot more like the god of [specific attack against certain believers], to me. He doesn't know everything (Gaia had to warn him about Metis). And he's certainly not all-powerful or sovereign (other gods are doing things without his knowledge, and someone splits open his head).

 

[rsr]

Sounds a lot more like the god of free-willers, to me.

An uncalled-for slur.

And while we're at it, I would suggest discussions of Greek mythology be left to those who actually know something about it and not clog up this forum with such stuff.

 

[Dale-c]

An uncalled-for slur.

My God, the God of Amraham, Isaac and Jacob has been slurred and blasphemed many times in this thread but you suddenly come to the defense of a mere mortal when they are offended.

At the risk of really offending some, I am actualy going to quote John Calvin, and actually for the first time I can remember doing so actually:

Let us also learn that nothing is less consistent than to punish heavily the crimes whereby mortals are injured, whilst we connive at the impious errors or sacrilegious modes of worship whereby the majesty of God is violated.
John Calvin

 

[J.D.]

See how the Greek gods are like the God you worship? The Greek gods predestined/foreordained everything for their own glory and pleasure -- same as yours!

No one may be likened to Almighty God. And yes, HE foreordained everything for HIS own glory and pleasure. Reference: The Holy Bible, Old and New Testaments.

 

[npetreley]

An uncalled-for slur.

And while we're at it, I would suggest discussions of Greek mythology be left to those who actually know something about it and not clog up this forum with such stuff.

Actually, I studied it years ago.

But that was an uncalled-for slur? skypair has been repeatedly accusing Calvinists of worshiping the Greek god of fates, yet my joke was an uncalled-for slur?

Okay, if you say so.

 

[mnw]

Maybe moving on from Zeus would be good.

It interests me that some in groups on both sides feel "their" perception of God in this area is blasephemed by the position of the other?

Is that not somewhat a harsh accusation to make at one another?

Anyway.

What would your ideas of God repenting in Scripture mean? I was in Amos 7-8 a few weeks ago and it led me to study the repentance of God out a little.

Let me state, I do not believe God makes any mistakes, nor does He do wrong or get surprised etc.

Any takers?

 

[Tom Butler]

What would your ideas of God repenting in Scripture mean? I was in Amos 7-8 a few weeks ago and it led me to study the repentance of God out a little.

Let me state, I do not believe God makes any mistakes, nor does He do wrong or get surprised etc.

Any takers?

When man repents, he changes his will.
When God repents, he wills a change. This is consistent with I Sam 15:29, which specifically says God is not a man that can change his mind.

 

[Dale-c]

Is that not somewhat a harsh accusation to make at one another?

It is a very harsh accusation to make.

As Paul said though, Who are thou oh Man that repliest against GOd?
A couple on this thread have been doing exactly that, replying against the very thing Paul says in ROmans not to reply against.
Also, in one post it was said that God "adjusts" HIs plan to our decision!
Think about the ramifications of that and then you might see just how serious that is!

 

[skypair]

When did God forknow what He knows? Was it before He made, or after He made?

Before creation - Rom 8:29.

as seen in this verse: 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

"Chose you to salvation THROUGH..." You say that God does the following things -- I say that we must do them, believe and be sanctified, for God to choose us.

Election is TO salvation...so therefore salvation comes AFTER election.

Rom 8:29-30 again. "Foreknowledge" and "predesination"/"election" before history -- "call," "justify," etc. during the course of time.
skypair

 

[mnw]

It is a very harsh accusation to make.

As Paul said though, Who are thou oh Man that repliest against GOd?
A couple on this thread have been doing exactly that, replying against the very thing Paul says in ROmans not to reply against.
Also, in one post it was said that God "adjusts" HIs plan to our decision!
Think about the ramifications of that and then you might see just how serious that is!

But even Paul did not accuse them of blasephemy. But I do see where you are coming from.

I find the repentance of God an interesting study. In many areas the word for repentance just means sorrow. I believe that is the usage in Genesis 6:6. God did not get surprised by man's sin, nor did He wish He had never created us, but it sorrowed Him that men had become so depraved.

But other passages are not so clear cut. Passages such as Psalm 106:23 -
"Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them."

Also in Amos 7 I do not think the case is so open and close.

I understand it to mean that God's apparent "change" in direction is actually in-keeping with His unchanging nature. God judges sin, but He forgives repentance and responds to intercessory prayer. So, to be consistent He responds to prayer of the intercessor and of the repentant.

So, it is really no change at all, but simply acting in-keeping with His own standards. If a man was unrepentant he would face judgment, but if he repented he would find mercy.

I know God does not strictly respond to anything, as He knows the end from the beginning.

And I guess it comes back again to the core issue of whether or not we have free will or no will or only the will to sin.

Anyway, I hope I am not blasepheming as that is not my intention or desire.

 

[skypair]

Also, in one post it was said that God "adjusts" HIs plan to our decision!
Think about the ramifications of that and then you might see just how serious that is!

Do you "respond" to your wife? Do you have a relationship with her? Is that "dangerous?"

Is the church the "bride of Christ." What would you expect? a "Husband" who is intransigent? Who doesn't speak or hear?

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

I asked...when did God know what He knows.

You said...

Before creation - Rom 8:29.

In other words...

God know Paul would believe if God sent a voice from heaven to speak with Paul, and blind Paul with a bright light, and tell Paul with a loud voice how to repent and be saved, so then God 1st made Paul and then sent a voice from heaven to speak with Paul, and blind Paul with a bright light, and told Paul with a loud voice how to repent and be saved...and what do you know..Paul believed and was saved just as God saw.

And Wag from China? Well...God also know Wag from China would not believe God is God if...God would not send a voice from heaven and speak with Wag about salvation. So...God made Wag in a time in China when the Word was not preached...and never sent a voice from heaven to speak with Wag...and what do you know...Wag never took Christ as Lord...just as God foresaw.

Is this right?

God saw 1st...

then God made believers...
then God made non-believers

 

[JohnBaskette]

Thanks for replying. Please know that I simply tried to share what I’ve learned about predestination & God’s sovereignty. I didn’t intend to start a thread.
Amen, I agree with you [Attack on Scripture snipped]
Let me address what you said near the end of your reply. Here is what you wrote:
“Now do you believe Christ was the precious lamb of God that was foreordained to
be born at the right time and to die at the right time, and die in the hands of
the right people? Was this not by God himself that foreordained this? If so,
you must believe that just as foreordained before the foundation of the world is
something ture of Christ, it also holds true with us...if indeed the Bible
claims this. Will you change one and not the other? “

Undoubtedly Jesus was slain before the foundation of the Earth! God tells us in His Word, (KJV).
Man, I hope & pray my writing is clear! I don’t see how you could write that after what I said unless you are a prederest!

God is sovereign, observe: Da 4:35 (KJV) And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


How dare any of us think that things are predestined in or eye’s, of course they are by God in His eye’s!

Are we so foolish to think that we have some special knowledge by which we can “STAY HIS HAND”?
Surely angels fear to think that! And though they are much higher and mightier than us…

Our frailty: “THE POT CRYING OUT TO THE POTTER WHAT ‘MAKEST THOU?” & THE CREATION TO HIM FASHONETH HIM, “WHAT DOEST THOU”?
Isa 45:9 (KJV) Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?”

Fate is found no where in the Bible. You have been reading to much about Greek Gods. Fate is a godless force by some, and others claim fate rest in the stars. These ideas are worthless junk.

What you should do, is spend more time reading the Bible. In it you will find....
predestination

Predestination is not control by the stars as your word fate, nor is it godless as your word fate. Predestination is God in control. Predestination is in the Bible. :

predestination
"… also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the council of His will .." – Ephesians 1:11 NAS


"For he (God) chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will …" – Ephesians 1:4-5 NIV


"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified he also glorified." – Romans 8:29-30 NIV

Now it is my guess that at this point you will change the meaning. But fact is, fate and predestination mean about the same thing. One is Godless, the other in God controled.

If you study the Bible and not Greek fate you will also find words like ordained,



Notice it is not fate that ordained, by God.

Notice also the wisdom of God is a mystery. What do you think this means?


Another great word you would find if you left Greek stories of false gods behind is "foreordained". Now forordained carries the same meaning as predestinate.



Now do you believe Christ was the precious lamb of God that was foreordained to be born at the right time and to die at the right time, and die in the hands of the right people? Was this not by God himself that foreordained this? If so, you must believe that just as foreordained before the foundation of the world is something ture of Christ, it also holds true with us...if indeed the Bible claims this. Will you change one and not the other?

 

[JohnBaskette]

Maybe moving on from Zeus would be good.

It interests me that some in groups on both sides feel "their" perception of God in this area is blasephemed by the position of the other?

Is that not somewhat a harsh accusation to make at one another?

Anyway.

What would your ideas of God repenting in Scripture mean? I was in Amos 7-8 a few weeks ago and it led me to study the repentance of God out a little.

Let me state, I do not believe God makes any mistakes, nor does He do wrong or get surprised etc.

Any takers?

Let me say that no Greek god worship here, TALK ABOUT ACCUSITORY! CHECK IT OUT:
Thanks for replying. Please know that I simply tried to share what I’ve learned about predestination & God’s sovereignty. I didn’t intend to start a thread.
[Attack on Scriptures snipped]
Let me address what you said near the end of your reply. Here is what you wrote:
“Now do you believe Christ was the precious lamb of God that was foreordained to
be born at the right time and to die at the right time, and die in the hands of
the right people? Was this not by God himself that foreordained this? If so,
you must believe that just as foreordained before the foundation of the world is
something ture of Christ, it also holds true with us...if indeed the Bible
claims this. Will you change one and not the other? “

Undoubtedly Jesus was slain before the foundation of the Earth! God tells us in His Word, (KJV).
Man, I hope & pray my writing is clear! I don’t see how you could write that after what I said unless you are a prederest!

God is sovereign, observe: Da 4:35 (KJV) And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


How dare any of us think that things are predestined in or eye’s, of course they are by God in His eye’s!

Are we so foolish to think that we have some special knowledge by which we can “STAY HIS HAND”?
Surely angels fear to think that! And though they are much higher and mightier than us…

Our frailty: “THE POT CRYING OUT TO THE POTTER WHAT ‘MAKEST THOU?” & THE CREATION TO HIM FASHONETH HIM, “WHAT DOEST THOU”?
Isa 45:9 (KJV) Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?”