Honest, Studied and Converted free willers?

Sorry if my accusation of pride just seemed a bit harsh. I just get tired of the rhetoric that basically reads, "I used to believe in free will but then I studied the Scriptures for myself etc."

While I understand how you may say something without meaning to sound proud, I think to many that is how it comes across.

ANyway, I'll let you all get back to discussing the finer details.

 

Sorry. It's true. I'm not going to pretend it's not true just to appear more humble.

 

Ah...but they are your opinions on what the Word of God says...and not the Word of God. This statement in itself hints of pride (my opinions are God's Word)

 

If the Bible said "2+2=4", then it wouldn't be my opinion that the Bible says "2+2=4". It says it plainly. That's how the Bible describes election. It says it plainly.

I think the problem is more that "2+2=4" offends some people to the point where they will go to any length to explain it away.

 

There are some tremendous men and women of God on boths sides of this debate. There are men who have spent whole lifetimes studying the Word and come to different conclusions.

Many have "changed sides" over the years and depending on the generation it seems more or less have changed from one side to the other.

Sadly, we seem to live in a very introspective age where the church looks in critically more than it looks up in worship and out in love.

 

There are some tremendous men, in the sense that they are far more intelligent and studied than I am, who believe there is no God. Yes, that includes some who have studied and know scripture (I know of such a man, and he is brilliant). I'm not going to consider his view as tenable just so I can appear humble.

That's how I see election, too. The Bible makes it very plain. I can't account for the brilliant men who don't see it. But I'm not going to pretend the issue is up for grabs just so I can appear to do things "in worship and out of love".

 

If it said it so "plainly" all believers would be calvinists. Instead the minority of believers are calvinists. Hmmm....

 

Right, nevermind.

 

That's not true at all. The Bible is very plain about many things yet the majority of professing Christians on earth refuse to believe them. If I had the survey numbers handy I'd show you some amazing statistics about what professing Christians believe. It is no less shocking to me that people deny the clear and plain Biblical teaching of election.

This is not the survey I'm thinking about (it was a survey of professing Christians only), but here are some examples of how wacky people can be:

Unexpected religious beliefs:
12% of adults believe that Joan of Arc was Noah's wife!
Only 42% of adults know that the Sermon on the Mount was preached by Jesus.
58% of adults believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches. We would have expected this to much lower.
More born-again Christians believe in channeling , astrology and reincarnation than non born-again Christians

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll4.htm

Here is a section from a Barna group survey (still not the one I'm thinking of). Their expression of the results use double-negatives so I added (in [] brackets) an easier way to understand the results.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=271

Still want to base truth on a popularity contest?

Just to show you how silly your argument sounds:

If the Bible said so "plainly" that Jesus did not sin, all people would say Jesus did not sin. Instead the minority of people say so. Hmmm....

 

Predestination vs. Our freewill

Let me share what my pastor, Joey Faust told me when I asked something like predestination vs. Freewill a long time ago. It was this:
Who's view are we talking about:
God's - He knew it was going to happen. Even makes it to happen.
Us - We make the choice. (Freewill)

My thoughts are that since we're not to try to ascend to God's Omniscience.
Let's look at it as we as people should, Freewill.
-

 

Fate is found no where in the Bible. You have been reading to much about Greek Gods. Fate is a godless force by some, and others claim fate rest in the stars. These ideas are worthless junk.

What you should do, is spend more time reading the Bible. In it you will find....
predestination

Predestination is not control by the stars as your word fate, nor is it godless as your word fate. Predestination is God in control. Predestination is in the Bible. :

predestination
"… also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the council of His will .." – Ephesians 1:11 NAS


"For he (God) chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will …" – Ephesians 1:4-5 NIV


"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified he also glorified." – Romans 8:29-30 NIV

Now it is my guess that at this point you will change the meaning. But fact is, fate and predestination mean about the same thing. One is Godless, the other in God controled.

If you study the Bible and not Greek fate you will also find words like ordained,

Notice it is not fate that ordained, by God.

Notice also the wisdom of God is a mystery. What do you think this means?


Another great word you would find if you left Greek stories of false gods behind is "foreordained". Now forordained carries the same meaning as predestinate.

Now do you believe Christ was the precious lamb of God that was foreordained to be born at the right time and to die at the right time, and die in the hands of the right people? Was this not by God himself that foreordained this? If so, you must believe that just as foreordained before the foundation of the world is something ture of Christ, it also holds true with us...if indeed the Bible claims this. Will you change one and not the other?

 

Exactly! You are laying it in there from your Calvinist theology.

I said Fate according to the Greek paradigm of god. Try to stick with the thought, Ja. If you don't understand what your god is doing in salvation and you can't do anything about it anyway, you believe in Fate.

Of course I will! God has a "wonderful plan for the believer!"

Actually, in the context I use it, both are God/god controlled. And you are right that both words encompass the Calvinist's view of predestination.

The Bible authors didn't use "fate" because they believed in free will. We were not consigned to some "predestiny" without any "input" of our own.

Well, if you equate "predestination" with "fate," the "wisdom of God" would be on a "mystery" level with the "Oracle at Delphi." That Oracle knew what the future held for each individual Greek and would reveal the "mystery" for a certain sum of denaris. But surely you don't want to equate God with the Oracle, now do you?

And "fate" as well, right? See how the Greek gods are like the God you worship? The Greek gods predestined/foreordained everything for their own glory and pleasure -- same as yours!

Now see, in all of this I have NEVER claimed that there is no place for predestination. What I have said is the we exercise free will, are foreseen in God's foreknowledge, and He "adapts" His plan accordingly as it causes us to be "conformed to the image of His dear Son." He didn't choose us to salvation but once He foreknew of it, He prepared a plan for our lives that was in keeping with our decisions (rewarding or chastening us according to our obedience or disobedience).

skypair

 

We are NOT equating predestination with fate SP . You admitted to Pastor Larry a couple weeks ago that your knowledge of Greek mythology was strictly high school stuff . So quit your pedestrian and sophomoric ramblings . Be more biblical and less skypairish . I know I'm asking the impossible . But with God all things are possible .

 

If so-called free will were true, quite frankly, I wouldn't be here to-day. My 'free will" demands other things that might better satisfy the flesh. It is God's precious love and reaching out to me that changes my desires Godward, and not my nebulous "free will".

Yes, there is relative freedom of movement under the permissive will of God..we are not robots...but we remain under the sovereign..the absolute...determative will of God for our lives, and His holy purposes.

You can believe as you will, but for me, I cannot bring God down to my level, if the scriptures are to be true.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I would rather base truth on what the majority of Spirit filled believers believe than the minority.

Just to show you how silly your statistics are...we are dealing with TRUE BELIEVERS...not Americans! Try dealing with the issue at hand, and quit erecting strawmen. The majority of believers...not Americans...are not calvinists.

 

......and, the majority of the world are unbelievers.....So, I guess we should really be unbelievers.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Not the point and topic we were discussing.