Honest, Studied and Converted free willers?

[Dale-c]

Not even one person who wasn't saved ever helped anyone else? No one ever loved any one else? Ever died for anyone else selflessly? No unsaved man ever showed mercy on anyone else?

Let's see:

An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

We can't please GOd without faith. A good deed without faith is not really a good deed.
if an unbeliever were to donate a large sum of money to repair a church building, he may be doing good to the church. God may use that to help the local congregation and to the church it is a good thing.
But it will NOT be counted as righteousness to the man who gives in unbelief.

So, no we can't do good without God.
Dying for someone else in unbelief does not win any brownie points with God.

This sounds like double speake to me. It's His plan but it's our choice to sin. You just contradicted yourself.

It is a careful balance.
Man will always sin if left to himself.
God allows men to act according to their own sinful will when it is in accord with His eternal plan.
BUt God will only allow that person to sin as far as it does not overcome God's plan.
God is NOT the author of sin.
But everytime we sin it is because God has not restrained us.

 

[mnw]

Sorry if my accusation of pride just seemed a bit harsh. I just get tired of the rhetoric that basically reads, "I used to believe in free will but then I studied the Scriptures for myself etc."

While I understand how you may say something without meaning to sound proud, I think to many that is how it comes across.

ANyway, I'll let you all get back to discussing the finer details.

 

[Dale-c]

While I understand how you may say something without meaning to sound proud, I think to many that is how it comes across.

The biggest problem of written forums is that we can't tell the emotion that goes into a post.
I was puzzled at why things were not as clear to some as they were to others.

I can see how this would be thought of as prideful, if it were MY opinions then it WOULD be prideful, VERY prideful.
But they are NOT my opinions they are the word of God.

 

[npetreley]

Sorry if my accusation of pride just seemed a bit harsh. I just get tired of the rhetoric that basically reads, "I used to believe in free will but then I studied the Scriptures for myself etc."

Sorry. It's true. I'm not going to pretend it's not true just to appear more humble.

 

[webdog]

I can see how this would be thought of as prideful, if it were MY opinions then it WOULD be prideful, VERY prideful.
But they are NOT my opinions they are the word of God.

Ah...but they are your opinions on what the Word of God says...and not the Word of God. This statement in itself hints of pride (my opinions are God's Word)

 

[npetreley]

Ah...but they are your opinions on what the Word of God says...and not the Word of God. This statement in itself hints of pride (my opinions are God's Word)

If the Bible said "2+2=4", then it wouldn't be my opinion that the Bible says "2+2=4". It says it plainly. That's how the Bible describes election. It says it plainly.

I think the problem is more that "2+2=4" offends some people to the point where they will go to any length to explain it away.

 

[mnw]

Sorry. It's true. I'm not going to pretend it's not true just to appear more humble.

There are some tremendous men and women of God on boths sides of this debate. There are men who have spent whole lifetimes studying the Word and come to different conclusions.

Many have "changed sides" over the years and depending on the generation it seems more or less have changed from one side to the other.

Sadly, we seem to live in a very introspective age where the church looks in critically more than it looks up in worship and out in love.

 

[npetreley]

There are some tremendous men and women of God on boths sides of this debate. There are men who have spent whole lifetimes studying the Word and come to different conclusions.

Many have "changed sides" over the years and depending on the generation it seems more or less have changed from one side to the other.

Sadly, we seem to live in a very introspective age where the church looks in critically more than it looks up in worship and out in love.

There are some tremendous men, in the sense that they are far more intelligent and studied than I am, who believe there is no God. Yes, that includes some who have studied and know scripture (I know of such a man, and he is brilliant). I'm not going to consider his view as tenable just so I can appear humble.

That's how I see election, too. The Bible makes it very plain. I can't account for the brilliant men who don't see it. But I'm not going to pretend the issue is up for grabs just so I can appear to do things "in worship and out of love".

 

[webdog]

If the Bible said "2+2=4", then it wouldn't be my opinion that the Bible says "2+2=4". It says it plainly. That's how the Bible describes election. It says it plainly.

I think the problem is more that "2+2=4" offends some people to the point where they will go to any length to explain it away.

If it said it so "plainly" all believers would be calvinists. Instead the minority of believers are calvinists. Hmmm....

 

[mnw]

There are some tremendous men, in the sense that they are far more intelligent and studied than I am, who believe there is no God. Yes, that includes some who have studied and know scripture (I know of such a man, and he is brilliant). I'm not going to consider his view as tenable just so I can appear humble.

That's how I see election, too. The Bible makes it very plain. I can't account for the brilliant men who don't see it. But I'm not going to pretend the issue is up for grabs just so I can appear to do things "in worship and out of love".

Right, nevermind.

 

[npetreley]

If it said it so "plainly" all believers would be calvinists. Instead the minority of believers are calvinists. Hmmm....

That's not true at all. The Bible is very plain about many things yet the majority of professing Christians on earth refuse to believe them. If I had the survey numbers handy I'd show you some amazing statistics about what professing Christians believe. It is no less shocking to me that people deny the clear and plain Biblical teaching of election.

This is not the survey I'm thinking about (it was a survey of professing Christians only), but here are some examples of how wacky people can be:

Unexpected religious beliefs:
12% of adults believe that Joan of Arc was Noah's wife!
Only 42% of adults know that the Sermon on the Mount was preached by Jesus.
58% of adults believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches. We would have expected this to much lower.
More born-again Christians believe in channeling , astrology and reincarnation than non born-again Christians

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll4.htm

Here is a section from a Barna group survey (still not the one I'm thinking of). Their expression of the results use double-negatives so I added (in [] brackets) an easier way to understand the results.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=271

It is not unusual to spot minor ebbs and flows in what adults believe. However, the 2007 study of the nation’s core beliefs found that five out of six theological perspectives have shifted in recent years away from traditional biblical views. This includes perspectives about three spiritual figures: God, Jesus, and Satan.

Most Americans still embrace a traditional view of God, but they are less likely than ever to do so. Currently two-thirds of Americans believe that God is best described as the all-powerful, all-knowing perfect creator of the universe who rules the world today (66%). However, this proportion is lower than it was a year ago (71%) and represents the lowest percentage in more than twenty years of similar surveys.

Few adults possess orthodox views about Jesus and the Devil. Currently, just one-third of Americans strongly disagree that Jesus sinned (37%) and just one-quarter strongly reject the idea that Satan is not a real spiritual being (24%). Each of these beliefs is lower than last year and among the lowest points in nearly two decades of tracking these views.

[Only 37% say Jesus did not sin. Only 24% insist that satan is a real spiritual being.]

The other changes in beliefs include greater reluctance to explain their faith to other people (just 29% strongly endorse this view, compared with 39% in 2006) and the willingness to reject good works as a means to personal salvation (down to 27% from 31%).

[Only 27% reject works-based salvation.]

Given these shifts, it is ironic that the only religious belief that was unchanged from previous years was the belief that the Bible is accurate in all the principles it teaches. Not quite half of Americans (45%) strongly assert this perspective.

[Only 45% say the Bible is accurate.]

Still want to base truth on a popularity contest?

Just to show you how silly your argument sounds:

If the Bible said so "plainly" that Jesus did not sin, all people would say Jesus did not sin. Instead the minority of people say so. Hmmm....

 

[JohnBaskette]

Predestination vs. Our freewill

Let me share what my pastor, Joey Faust told me when I asked something like predestination vs. Freewill a long time ago. It was this:
Who's view are we talking about:
God's - He knew it was going to happen. Even makes it to happen.
Us - We make the choice. (Freewill)

My thoughts are that since we're not to try to ascend to God's Omniscience.
Let's look at it as we as people should, Freewill.
-

 

[Jarthur001]

As if you pretend that your doctrine ISN'T adverse to scripture, right? Don't "play the Pharisee" with me. You have "developed" your own antidote to Bible truth called Calvinism. When I present one interpretation of scripture, you have the coinciding Calvinist opposite to offer to where we aren't talking about scrupture anymore --- we're talking about the character of God Himself!! And I find that the character of your god closely resembles the Greek god of "Fate." You neither know what God is doing nor do you believe there is anything that YOU can DO about it.

Of course, I invite you to disprove that statement by showing me that you KNOW the "secret counsel of God" regarding whether He "elected" you (course, it wouldn't be "secret" if you did know it, would it?). Then you can explain to me what YOU yourself can do/have done to alter the course of "fate."

This is just another scurrilous ad homenim on your part. I make it a point to give my understanding of whatever scripture is presented. But go ahead and make yourself "look good" at my expense.

I do believe them ---- just not as interpretted for me by Calvinism.

skypair

Fate is found no where in the Bible. You have been reading to much about Greek Gods. Fate is a godless force by some, and others claim fate rest in the stars. These ideas are worthless junk.

What you should do, is spend more time reading the Bible. In it you will find....
predestination

Predestination is not control by the stars as your word fate, nor is it godless as your word fate. Predestination is God in control. Predestination is in the Bible. :

predestination
"… also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the council of His will .." – Ephesians 1:11 NAS


"For he (God) chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will …" – Ephesians 1:4-5 NIV


"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified he also glorified." – Romans 8:29-30 NIV

Now it is my guess that at this point you will change the meaning. But fact is, fate and predestination mean about the same thing. One is Godless, the other in God controled.

If you study the Bible and not Greek fate you will also find words like ordained,

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory.

Notice it is not fate that ordained, by God.

Notice also the wisdom of God is a mystery. What do you think this means?


Another great word you would find if you left Greek stories of false gods behind is "foreordained". Now forordained carries the same meaning as predestinate.

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now do you believe Christ was the precious lamb of God that was foreordained to be born at the right time and to die at the right time, and die in the hands of the right people? Was this not by God himself that foreordained this? If so, you must believe that just as foreordained before the foundation of the world is something ture of Christ, it also holds true with us...if indeed the Bible claims this. Will you change one and not the other?

 

[skypair]

Fate is found no where in the Bible.

Exactly! You are laying it in there from your Calvinist theology.

You have been reading to much about Greek Gods. Fate is a godless force by some, and others claim fate rest in the stars.

I said Fate according to the Greek paradigm of god. Try to stick with the thought, Ja. If you don't understand what your god is doing in salvation and you can't do anything about it anyway, you believe in Fate.

What you should do, is spend more time reading the Bible. In it you will find....predestination

Of course I will! God has a "wonderful plan for the believer!"

Now it is my guess that at this point you will change the meaning. But fact is, fate and predestination mean about the same thing. One is Godless, the other in God controled.

Actually, in the context I use it, both are God/god controlled. And you are right that both words encompass the Calvinist's view of predestination.

If you study the Bible and not Greek fate you will also find words like ordained,

The Bible authors didn't use "fate" because they believed in free will. We were not consigned to some "predestiny" without any "input" of our own.

Notice also the wisdom of God is a mystery. What do you think this means?

Well, if you equate "predestination" with "fate," the "wisdom of God" would be on a "mystery" level with the "Oracle at Delphi." That Oracle knew what the future held for each individual Greek and would reveal the "mystery" for a certain sum of denaris. But surely you don't want to equate God with the Oracle, now do you?

Another great word you would find if you left Greek stories of false gods behind is "foreordained". Now forordained carries the same meaning as predestinate.

And "fate" as well, right? See how the Greek gods are like the God you worship? The Greek gods predestined/foreordained everything for their own glory and pleasure -- same as yours!

Now do you believe Christ was the precious lamb of God that was foreordained to be born at the right time and to die at the right time, and die in the hands of the right people? Was this not by God himself that foreordained this? If so, you must believe that just as foreordained before the foundation of the world is something ture of Christ, it also holds true with us...if indeed the Bible claims this. Will you change one and not the other?

Now see, in all of this I have NEVER claimed that there is no place for predestination. What I have said is the we exercise free will, are foreseen in God's foreknowledge, and He "adapts" His plan accordingly as it causes us to be "conformed to the image of His dear Son." He didn't choose us to salvation but once He foreknew of it, He prepared a plan for our lives that was in keeping with our decisions (rewarding or chastening us according to our obedience or disobedience).

skypair

 

[Rippon]

We are NOT equating predestination with fate SP . You admitted to Pastor Larry a couple weeks ago that your knowledge of Greek mythology was strictly high school stuff . So quit your pedestrian and sophomoric ramblings . Be more biblical and less skypairish . I know I'm asking the impossible . But with God all things are possible .

 

[Dale-c]

and He "adapts" His plan accordingly as it causes us to be

Wow, of all the blasphemous nonsense!
I will say at least Sp is somewhat consistent in his works salvation and his sovereignty of man.

If God adapts his plan to our, then it is no more HIs plan but ours and makes God a liar!

Let God be true and Skypair a liar!

 

[Jim1999]

If so-called free will were true, quite frankly, I wouldn't be here to-day. My 'free will" demands other things that might better satisfy the flesh. It is God's precious love and reaching out to me that changes my desires Godward, and not my nebulous "free will".

Yes, there is relative freedom of movement under the permissive will of God..we are not robots...but we remain under the sovereign..the absolute...determative will of God for our lives, and His holy purposes.

You can believe as you will, but for me, I cannot bring God down to my level, if the scriptures are to be true.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[webdog]

Still want to base truth on a popularity contest?

I would rather base truth on what the majority of Spirit filled believers believe than the minority.

Just to show you how silly your argument sounds:

If the Bible said so "plainly" that Jesus did not sin, all people would say Jesus did not sin. Instead the minority of people say so. Hmmm....

Just to show you how silly your statistics are...we are dealing with TRUE BELIEVERS...not Americans! Try dealing with the issue at hand, and quit erecting strawmen. The majority of believers...not Americans...are not calvinists.

 

[Jim1999]

......and, the majority of the world are unbelievers.....So, I guess we should really be unbelievers.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[webdog]

Not the point and topic we were discussing.