How Christ Was "Made Sin"

[percho]

No surprise, but I disagree.

I believe that our purchase by Christ's blood is speaking of His death, not something that ended prior to Christ dying.

In your theory (as you stated across several threads) we were saved and forgiven of our sins by Christ becoming sin for us as the Father looked upon His Son as not only a sinner but the "chief of sinners" and punished our sins laid upon Him.

That means, in your theory, that Christ's death was not necessary - it was just the inevitable conclusion after His work of redemption was completed.

Brings to mind; I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law -- then Christ died in vain.

And;

[to the] for by [to] grace ye are having been saved, through [the] faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

I think we need to remember, the angel told Joseph, the one in her, the virgin, being generated, out of Spirit is holy and the virgin would bring forth the holy one, God with us. Hebrews 1:2 states that one, Son, has been appointed heir of all things.

Does that include being the heir of the grace of life?

When did that Son, who died by the way, inherit the grace of life? Is that the promise of God, who can not lie, made before times begin?

Is it possible for anyone else being a joint heir without being given the Spirit if adoption?

That is how I understand the word of God.

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks for your reply, know you are busy. I have read thru the balance of thread and do not think it was metaphorical but literally made sin as you stated he said, "My God My God why have you forsaken me," It [sin] is finished," . James by the HS says in 1:15 and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Christ, "then being sin," then gave the soul/life of the flesh, in the blood, of him for sin [of the soul], Christ died, the wages of sin. The atonement.---

I have asked in the past if the having been made sin, dead, Son was unclean relative to God the Father, of him?
Was he made clean from sin and death? How? When?

IMHO Christ was dead from between the 9th hour to 12th hour on the 14th to the 9th hour to the 12th hour on the 17th the weekly Sabbath when he then became the first-born out of the dead [regeneration anyway one looks at it] Col 1:18 the first-fruit of them that sleep 1 Cor 15:And now, Christ [the, whole, of him] hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruit of those sleeping he became,
I believe the see the whole of the matter in;
Rev 1:5 YLT and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen, and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

If Christ, to date the only one raised to die no more, is not raised you have not been washed of your sins, You ar still in your sins. Yes or No?

Correct.

 

[JonC]

@percho,
If Christ was made sin, it follows that Habakkuk 1:13 would apply.
Written in haste, ence the brevity.

What do you mean?

Habakkuk says that Christ will not condone sin.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your application, just trying to work out exactly what you are saying.

Habakkuk 1:9–13 All of them come for violence.
Their horde of faces moves forward.
They collect captives like sand.
“They mock at kings
And rulers are a laughing matter to them.
They laugh at every fortress
And heap up rubble to capture it.
Then they will sweep through like the wind and pass on.
But they will be held guilty,
They whose strength is their god.”
Are You not from everlasting,
O Lord, my God, my Holy One?
We will not die.
You, O Lord, have appointed them to judge;
And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.
Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
Why do You look with favor
On those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
Those more righteous than they?

 

[JonC]

Brings to mind; I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law -- then Christ died in vain.

And;

[to the] for by [to] grace ye are having been saved, through [the] faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

I think we need to remember, the angel told Joseph, the one in her, the virgin, being generated, out of Spirit is holy and the virgin would bring forth the holy one, God with us. Hebrews 1:2 states that one, Son, has been appointed heir of all things.

Does that include being the heir of the grace of life?

When did that Son, who died by the way, inherit the grace of life? Is that the promise of God, who can not lie, made before times begin?

Is it possible for anyone else being a joint heir without being given the Spirit if adoption?

That is how I understand the word of God.

I agree.

Unfortunately many (primarily one) theological systems maintain that the New Covenant is the grace of God manifested through the Law rather than apart from the Law.

Habakkuk 1:13 makes the statement that God (Father, Son, and Spirit) will not condone (or approve of) sin. This is the great problem of man.

BUT God became man, became a curse, bore our sin, and died on the cross for us.

The wages of sin is death. This is one reason I disagree with @Martin Marprelate 's post indicating that Christ being made sin was accomplished without Christ dying on the Cross.

I believe that Christ's death (God experiencing the wages on sin, or the "curse") is vital to our redemption. The Cross is the climax of the Son's obedience, his righteousness. The Resurrection is the hope we now have in Him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The wages of sin is death. This is one reason I disagree with @Martin Marprelate 's post indicating that Christ being made sin was accomplished without Christ dying on the Cross.

I am sorry to learn that you disagree with the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit who inspired John, but what do They know? No doubt you will explain Their mistake to Them when you meet Them.

John 19:28. 'After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished ......' [Gk. teleo. Or 'finished' or 'made an end of'' or 'performed' or 'paid']..
1. On the cross we may see the fulfilment of all the prophesies which had been written of the Messiah in the Old Testament.
2. On the cross we see the completion of all His sufferings.
3. On the cross we see the purpose of His coming attained.
4. On the cross we can see the accomplishment of the Atonement.
5. On the cross we can see the end of all our sins.
6. On the cross we see the payment of the Law’s requirements.
7. Finally, on the cross we see, by the eye of faith, the defeat of Satan.
I have no time to work these things out here. I took them from a blog post I made 12 years ago. ‘It is Finished!’ Look there for more detail. I should add that I was heavily indebted to A.W. Pink for that post.

The point is that the Lord Jesus had to accomplish a whole lot more than simply dying. He did not need to suffer as He did just to die. That He had finished the work the Father had given Him is shown when, at the ninth hour the sun re-appeared, and no doubt our Lord was conscious once more of the Father's love and approval. Where just before He had cried, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Now He could dismiss His spirit with the word "Father" on His lips again (Luke 23:46).

But for those who want to be pedantic, there were two more things to be done, which happened almost immediately. Firstly, the fulfilment of Psalm 22:15. '...... That the Scripture might be fulfilled, [He] said, "I thirst!" Now a vessel of sour wine was sitting there, and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop and put it to His mouth......'
And lastly, of course, ' ....... He gave up [or 'dismissed'] His spirit.' No one can kill God; He gave up His life when His work on earth was complete (John 10:18; 17:4).

 

[percho]

I am sorry to learn that you disagree with the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit who inspired John, but what do They know? No doubt you will explain Their mistake to Them when you meet Them.

John 19:28. 'After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished ......' [Gk. teleo. Or 'finished' or 'made an end of'' or 'performed' or 'paid']..
1. On the cross we may see the fulfilment of all the prophesies which had been written of the Messiah in the Old Testament.
2. On the cross we see the completion of all His sufferings.
3. On the cross we see the purpose of His coming attained.
4. On the cross we can see the accomplishment of the Atonement.
5. On the cross we can see the end of all our sins.
6. On the cross we see the payment of the Law’s requirements.
7. Finally, on the cross we see, by the eye of faith, the defeat of Satan.
I have no time to work these things out here. I took them from a blog post I made 12 years ago. ‘It is Finished!’ Look there for more detail. I should add that I was heavily indebted to A.W. Pink for that post.

The point is that the Lord Jesus had to accomplish a whole lot more than simply dying. He did not need to suffer as He did just to die. That He had finished the work the Father had given Him is shown when, at the ninth hour the sun re-appeared, and no doubt our Lord was conscious once more of the Father's love and approval. Where just before He had cried, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Now He could dismiss His spirit with the word "Father" on His lips again (Luke 23:46).

But for those who want to be pedantic, there were two more things to be done, which happened almost immediately. Firstly, the fulfilment of Psalm 22:15. '...... That the Scripture might be fulfilled, [He] said, "I thirst!" Now a vessel of sour wine was sitting there, and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop and put it to His mouth......'
And lastly, of course, ' ....... He gave up [or 'dismissed'] His spirit.' No one can kill God; He gave up His life when His work on earth was complete (John 10:18; 17:4).

IMHO on the cross he was made sin, "our sin,"
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD [God the Father] hath laid on him [the Son of God] the iniquity of us all. Isa 53:6

Therefore as James by the HS says, when sin is finished it brings forth death. Jesus then dismissed his life onto the hands of his Father.

All of this goes along perfectly with the last chronological words of Jesus.

Jesus is made sin, My God, My God why have thou forsaken me?
sin is condemned in [to] the flesh Rom 8:3 [John knowing that all things were now accomplished[ Matt It is finished, James 1:6
I thirst. ? Psa 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
death [shed the soul/life, of the flesh, in the blood, for redemption] Father into your hands I commit the spirit of me.

 

[JonC]

I am sorry to learn that you disagree with the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit who inspired John, . . ..

Quite the contrary. Where you insist that the "truth" of what Scripture "teaches" is somehow absent the actual text of Scripture, I believe that God is teaching what He has written in His Word.

Perhaps it would be better if you were more indebted to God than you are Pink.

Christ's death really dies matter. His death was not merely an exit from this world after redemption had been accomplished. He died for our sins (I realize you believe that a metaphor for God punished Him instead of us paying out debt and when redemption was accomplished He had nothing else to do so He died).

But you sacrifice so much Scripture on the altar of your theories.

That is what has led you so far from out faith. You have built theory upon theory, spiraling increasingly further from God's Word you are unable to accept even the simplest of truths without qualifying them against your theology.

You are the falcon who not only cannot hear the falconer but has forgotten one exists.

Christ really did die for our sins. Rather than reasoning that truth away, making Christ's death a meaningless aftereffect, you would do better by simply accepting that truth.

Your reasoning that the text of Scripture would only be correct had Jesus cried out "it is finished" after His death is not logical.

No, @Martin Marprelate , Christ's death was not in vain. His death really did matter. He died for our sins.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So was Jesus lying or was He merely mistaken when He said, "It is finished"?

 

[JonC]

So was Jesus lying or was He merely mistaken when He said, "It is finished"?

No, Jesus was not lying. God was not lying when He said (through Paul) that He died for our sins and purchased us with His blood.

Your posts seem to indicate that you may have been carried away by vain philosophy, Martin.

You pick up on one word or phrase and read into that your entire philosophy of the Cross - even at the expense of God's Word.

Christ had been obedient even unto death on a cross. It was a accomplished.

Denying the power of Christ's blood, of His death for our sins, is a denial of traditional Christianity.

But how can you share in His death if you believe it a meaningless exit?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Once again, you do not answer the question in your haste to make an utterly false accusation against me..
In John 17:17:4, the Lord Jesus says, "I have finished the work which You have given Me to do." In John 19:28, we are told, 'After this, Jesus, knowing all things were now acconplished,' and in John 17:30, He declares, "It is finished." Needless to say, all this takes places before He dies.
So iit's not once, but three timees that our Lord considers the work done before His death. Now go away and think about that. It really isn't difficult. And when you have thought it through, which should take you all of 30 seconds, you will understand that you have made a fool of yourself, and made a totally unjustified attempt to blacken my character.

We have corresponded for more than five years now. If you really think that I don't believe that the Lord Jesus needed to die, you can never have read my posts. with any interest at all.

 

[JonC]

Once again, you do not answer the question

Yes, I did. Jesus ministry was completed. It was finished. He was obedient to God.

Look, you will never convince me that Christ's death was worthless.

You are allowing your theories to override Christian doctrine.


Consider that Christ said that He had finished His work in John 17 (prior to the Cross, prior to saying "it is finished".

No, @Martin Marprelate , the Cross matters. Christ's death matters. Our salvation depends on it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, I did. Jesus ministry was completed. It was finished. He was obedient to God.

Look, you will never convince me that Christ's death was worthless.

You are allowing your theories to override Christian doctrine.


Consider that Christ said that He had finished His work in John 17 (prior to the Cross, prior to saying "it is finished".

No, @Martin Marprelate , the Cross matters. Christ's death matters. Our salvation depends on it.

Yes, I did. Jesus ministry was completed. It was finished. He was obedient to God.

Look, you will never convince me that Christ's death was worthless.

You are allowing your theories to override Christian doctrine.


Consider that Christ said that He had finished His work in John 17 (prior to the Cross, prior to saying "it is finished".

No, @Martin Marprelate , the Cross matters. Christ's death matters. Our salvation depends on it.

Would you care to tell us exactly where I have said that the cross 'does not matter'?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is from my post #8 on this thread.

6. Our Lord suffers the most ignominious of all deaths - that of the cross, one reserved for the very worst of criminals. And the one on whom it was inflicted was accounted cursed by God (Galatians 3:13, Deuteronomy 21:23).
Why is this? So that we who are by nature the children of wrath, and are ourselves under the curse of God for our sins (Galatians 3:10, quoting Deuteronomy 27:26), might be counted blessed for Christ's sake John 17:24) and have the curse removed by having it laid upon our sinless Saviour. 'Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.'

I have never ever denied that the death of the Lord Jesus 'does not matter.' God forbid I should ever do so! That is all in the fevered imagination of @JonC who never reads my posts, or if he does, doesn't understand them.

 

[JonC]

Would you care to tell us exactly where I have said that the cross 'does not matter'?

What I mean is towards redemption (context matters).

You have repeatedly argued against my insistence that Christ died for our sins (a physical death) by insisting Cjrist's work of atonement was accomplished prior to His death.

In your opinion, how did Jesus' physical death on the Cross purchase us?

 

[JonC]

This is from my post #8 on this thread.

I have never ever denied that the death of the Lord Jesus 'does not matter.' God forbid I should ever do so! That is all in the fevered imagination of @JonC who never reads my posts, or if he does, doesn't understand them.

Context matters.

I am saying that you have repeatedly argued against my insistence that Christ physically died on the cross to redeem us from sin and death.

You even went so far as to accuse me of arguing against the Holy Spirit and calling Jesus a liar for claiming Chriat died for our sins (which is what led us to this temperment of discourse).

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate ,

If I have misunderstood you then I apologize. It is possible that your accusation I was calling Jesus a liar and denying the Holy Spirit by saying that we were redeemed by Christ's death set the tone which led to a misunderstanding.

Rather than trying to figure out where I misunderstood you by reading numerous posts, I'll just ask here -

1. On the cross Jesus cried "it is finished" then He died.

2. How did Christ's death (after crying "it is finished") redeem us from our sins?

In other words - we know how traditional Christianity viewed Jesus' physical death as redeeming man and the resurrection as tge hope of our faith in Him.

But you have not specified exactly how Christ's death redeemed us.

Instead you seem to say that our redemption was the Father either punishinging our sins on Christ or separating from Him before He cried out "it is finished".

How did Christ's physical death redeem us?

 

[Alan Gross]

2. How did Christ's death (after crying "it is finished") redeem us from our sins?

He couldn't talk, after His Death on the cross.

So He said, "it is finished" prior to His Death, even though His saying that His Accomplishment, of "it is finished", includes His Death?

...

Gill may be stating Jesus' Death, as implied when "he said, it is finished;"

Gill says Jesus did the Father's Will, to "obtain eternal salvation for his people,
all which were now done, or as good as done;

Gill:

"John 19:30

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar
Of the Roman soldiers, who offered it to him, either by way of reproach, or to quench his thirst; and he drank of it, as is very likely:

"he said, it is finished;
that is, the whole will of God; as that he should be incarnate, be exposed to shame and reproach, and suffer much, and die;

"the whole work his Father gave him to do, which was to preach the Gospel, work miracles, and obtain eternal salvation for his people, all which were now done, or as good as done;

"the whole righteousness of the law was fulfilled, an holy nature assumed, perfect obedience yielded to it, and the penalty of death endured;

"hence a perfect righteousness was finished agreeably to the law, which was magnified and made honourable by it, and redemption from its curse and condemnation secured;

"sin was made an end of, full atonement and satisfaction for it were given;

"complete pardon procured, peace made, and redemption from all iniquity obtained;

"all enemies were conquered; all types, promises, and prophecies were fulfilled,
and his own course of life ended: the reason of his saying so was, because all this was near being done, just upon finishing, and was as good as done; and was sure and certain, and so complete, that nothing need, or could be added to it;

"and it was done entirely without the help of man, and cannot be undone;

"all which since has more clearly appeared by Christ's resurrection from the dead, his entrance into heaven, his session at God's right hand, the declaration of the Gospel, and the application of salvation to particular persons:

"and he bowed his head;
as one dying, and freely submitting to his Father's will, and the stroke of death:

"and gave up the ghost;
his spirit or soul into the hands of his Father; freely laying down that precious life of his which no man could take away from him."

 

[JonC]

He couldn't talk, after His Death on the cross.

So He said, "it is finished" prior to His Death, even though His saying that His Accomplishment, of "it is finished", includes His Death?

I agree.

@Martin Marprelate , IMHO, took the passage to an extreme in his interpretation when he declared that view is calling Jesus a liar and denying the Holy Spirit's revelation in John.

 

[MB]

IMO It was the blood of Christ that ultimately paid for our sins He had to die and shed His blood. Which He did
MB

 

[JonC]

IMO It was the blood of Christ that ultimately paid for our sins He had to die and shed His blood. Which He did
MB

I agree He died for our sins. In Scripture the "shedding of blood" is a way of speaking of death.