How did you come to believe?

[DHK]

ALL humans are born under the taint of original Sin, as ALL have been already judged and found guilty by God due to the fall of Adam.

ALL deserve to go to hell, as we are sinners who choose to disobey God wilfully..

God decided from eternity part to redeem and save out for Himself a remnant of sinners, unto His glory..

seems that you are basing this upon human reasoning of what is to be considered "fair and right!"

If you go back through the thread you will find my answers based on Scriptures and not the human reasoning of Calvin. There is the difference.
My answer is based on a scriptural precedent from the example of David and the death of his child.
My answer is based on the testimony of Abraham concerning his own relatives:
"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right."

I have Scripture to give you; not human reasoning.
The Calvinist gives typical "boxed" answers wrapped in pretty bows:
"This is a mystery." (Yep, sure is. But that is why we have Bibles to study.)
"It was decreed from eternity past." (A good answer that tells me you haven't studied your Bible--you can always fall back on it.)
"It was foreordained to be."
"God chose some for this purpose and chose others for another purpose."
I have heard all these pat answers before.
Anything original to add?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is another flaw in the attempt to give TULIP a real life application. Your are saying that all children under this unknown age of accountability are Elect, but once they reach a certain age they must then become un-elect. That would defeat TULIP's stance on Election.

What your saying here is an attempt to soften the blow presented by Calvinism. If Calvinism is true, then there must be millions of children who are not Elect from birth, just like the claim towards adults.

And what do you say...they gotta hear the gospel in order to be saved...so what if they die before they hear the gospel?

 

[DHK]

And what do you say...they gotta hear the gospel in order to be saved...so what if they die before they hear the gospel?

What happened to the simple belief in:

Jesus said to him: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."

That is the truth of the matter. Either one believes the words of Jesus or he does not. There is no "But what if..."

 

[Yeshua1]

If you go back through the thread you will find my answers based on Scriptures and not the human reasoning of Calvin. There is the difference.
My answer is based on a scriptural precedent from the example of David and the death of his child.
My answer is based on the testimony of Abraham concerning his own relatives:
"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right."

I have Scripture to give you; not human reasoning.
The Calvinist gives typical "boxed" answers wrapped in pretty bows:
"This is a mystery." (Yep, sure is. But that is why we have Bibles to study.)
"It was decreed from eternity past." (A good answer that tells me you haven't studied your Bible--you can always fall back on it.)
"It was foreordained to be."
"God chose some for this purpose and chose others for another purpose."
I have heard all these pat answers before.
Anything original to add?

Is it "fair" to you if the Lord had decreed that Jesus would come to die and pay a ransom for some, but not all sinners?

or must He provide atonement provisions for ALl sinners , in order to be 'fair?"

 

[steaver]

And what do you say...they gotta hear the gospel in order to be saved...so what if they die before they hear the gospel?

We can only speculate since God does not give us details about all infants/small children.

What we do know is that those who hear the gospel and reject the gospel will not be saved.

Since we believe a person must hear the gospel to be saved, then I would speculate that all persons will hear the gospel. Either by another person, or by angel, or by Jesus Himself before or after death.

Yes, I know, it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment. I don't think this verse is defined enough to declare nothing can happen between physical death and judgment.

Again, all speculation. For some reason God did not give us all the details. We are just called to preach the gospel to every creature and let God work out the semantics.

 

[steaver]

yes, have neices/nephews, 2 sons of my own, but trust thatthe Lord will do the right thing always, so trust in Him to save them!

According to your beliefs, the right thing for God to do would be to damn them to hell. According to your beliefs, God does not save a person because it is the right thing to do.

So my question was....

"Do you mind God not choosing them for salvation and allowing them to be damned to hell for ever?"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We can only speculate since God does not give us details about all infants/small children.

What we do know is that those who hear the gospel and reject the gospel will not be saved.

Since we believe a person must hear the gospel to be saved, then I would speculate that all persons will hear the gospel. Either by another person, or by angel, or by Jesus Himself before or after death.

Yes, I know, it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment. I don't think this verse is defined enough to declare nothing can happen between physical death and judgment.

Again, all speculation. For some reason God did not give us all the details. We are just called to preach the gospel to every creature and let God work out the semantics.

So your theology doesnt have all the answers then either.....yet you throw rocks at the dopey Calvinists because you perceive that they dont address your questions (specifically about kids & salvation) .....guess what, you dont have all the answers then either.

While your at it throw some rocks at the C of C, the RC's and who ever else you deem inadequate.

 

[steaver]

So your theology doesnt have all the answers then either.....yet you throw rocks at the dopey Calvinists because you perceive that they dont address your questions (specifically about kids & salvation) .....guess what, you dont have all the answers then either.

While your at it throw some rocks at the C of C, the RC's and who ever else you deem inadequate.

It appears that by your comments you yourself are doing quite a bit of rock casting :tear:. I ask questions, I do not equate this with throwing rocks.

No guessing, as you can see in my answer to you, I said I don't have the answer, does this upset you for some reason? And why did you call Calvinist "dopey"? I didn't call them dopey. I do ask questions that expose the error in the position they hold. Most times they do not attempt to give answer, I believe because the questions I ask cannot be answered from the heart without contradicting the doctrine. I gave my answer, it is an honest reply, I did not ignore the question, nor does my answer conflict with my beliefs.

 

[DHK]

Is it "fair" to you if the Lord had decreed that Jesus would come to die and pay a ransom for some, but not all sinners?

or must He provide atonement provisions for ALl sinners , in order to be 'fair?"

"Jesus loves me this I know; for the Bible tells me so."

The Bible tells us that He died for all, not some; that his atonement was for all; not some.
"He is longsuffering not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance."
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world.
--That is fairly clear statement IMO.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What happened to the simple belief in:

Jesus said to him: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."

That is the truth of the matter. Either one believes the words of Jesus or he does not. There is no "But what if..."

Please...kids that die in childbirth

 

[DHK]

Please...kids that die in childbirth

Yes they do. If you have kept up with this thread I have already addressed that with the example of David.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please...kids that die in childbirth

Will be saved by the Lord, for He has provided for their redemption in the work of jesus upon the Cross!

 

[Yeshua1]

"Jesus loves me this I know; for the Bible tells me so."

The Bible tells us that He died for all, not some; that his atonement was for all; not some.
"He is longsuffering not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance."
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world.
--That is fairly clear statement IMO.

problems with that though is that the Will of God to save will make sure they get saved!

Also, did Jesus really die to secure salvation for sinners who by they very natures stay at war against God and His ways?

seems that viewpoint has at best God being able to offer potenetial salvation to all who would come to him to receive it, yet he is forced to wait and see if any would!

 

[DHK]

problems with that though is that the Will of God to save will make sure they get saved!

Also, did Jesus really die to secure salvation for sinners who by they very natures stay at war against God and His ways?

seems that viewpoint has at best God being able to offer potenetial salvation to all who would come to him to receive it, yet he is forced to wait and see if any would!

God is omniscient. He knows all things. If he didn't he wouldn't be God.
If I decide to give a gift to all in my extended family, would I be forcing it upon them? No. They have a choice whether or not to receive it. If the gift was a "Christmas sweater" with reindeer on it, they all may not be thrilled with it, and many of them probably would reject it in one way or another.
I can offer a gift. They don't have to receive it. The value of the gift is in the eyes of the one receiving it.

Apparently the gift of salvation does not have much value to many people.

 

[Yeshua1]

God is omniscient. He knows all things. If he didn't he wouldn't be God.
If I decide to give a gift to all in my extended family, would I be forcing it upon them? No. They have a choice whether or not to receive it. If the gift was a "Christmas sweater" with reindeer on it, they all may not be thrilled with it, and many of them probably would reject it in one way or another.
I can offer a gift. They don't have to receive it. The value of the gift is in the eyes of the one receiving it.

Apparently the gift of salvation does not have much value to many people.

or someone could choose not to even offer the gift, as they know that the other party is unable/incapable to even receive it!

 

[DHK]

or someone could choose not to even offer the gift, as they know that the other party is unable/incapable to even receive it!

God doesn't give a command that people are not able to obey. That is the problem with the unbiblical doctrine of "Total Inability."
We are depraved; have a sin nature; but are not "Totally Unable."

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
The command hinges on the ability of one to believe.

God has commanded all to repent.
That hinges on the ability of one to repent. God does not repent or believe for the person that he has commanded to believe or repent.
"Dead in Christ" does not mean either annihilated or lifeless.
It means he is separated from God and needs to be reconciled.

That is the reason he has given to every believer "the ministry of reconciliation."

 

[Rippon]

The question is:
How did you come to believe?

And DHK will say it is through superior wisdom and perception someone can come to faith in Christ.

It is the view of DHK that "God may or may not be involved in one's salvation."

With respect to someone's salvation DHK maintains that "God knows about it of course."

 

[DHK]

And DHK will say it is through superior wisdom and perception someone can come to faith in Christ.

It is the view of DHK that "God may or may not be involved in one's salvation."

With respect to someone's salvation DHK maintains that "God knows about it of course."

Did God know about it when you "came to believe," or was it all a "mystery"?
How did you come to know the Lord as your Savior?

 

[Rippon]

Did God know about it when you "came to believe," or was it all a "mystery"?

Silly "question". And you know you are not really asking a true question. You have relagated the Lord to the sidelines when it comes to conversion. The Lord determines when,where,how and everything else regarding our salvation. He is not a spectator as you seem to think.

You need to stop side-stepping.

 

[DHK]

Silly "question". And you know you are not really asking a true question. You have relagated the Lord to the sidelines when it comes to conversion. The Lord determines when,where,how and everything else regarding our salvation. He is not a spectator as you seem to think.

You need to stop side-stepping.

To you that may have been silly, though there are many on this board that cannot give answer to the second part of the post. They don't know when they were saved. They think they have been saved all their life, in which case I would question if they are really saved or not.

Therefore I ask you again, How did you come to know the Lord as your Savior?