I definitely believe in man’s choice.
As for being saved and born again happening separately at different times, no, it is at the same time.
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How do Baptists view I Pet 3:21
- Thread starter Matt Black
- Start date
I definitely believe in man’s choice.
As for being saved and born again happening separately at different times, no, it is at the same time.
Would you mind giving me the scriptures that you are using to support your beliefs?
You are missing Peter's point! Salvation "by water" corrresponds to salvation by baptism in namely this point - a "FIGURE."
Noah and all his family already found "grace in the eyes of the Lord" 100 years prior to building the ark and were in the ark (figure of Christ) before a single drop of water fell. God had already closed the door himself. Hence, they are LITERALLY in Christ prior to the flood and thus they are FIGURATIVELY "in Christ" (in the ark) prior to the deluge of water from below and from above - or a complete immersion. However, the water lifted the ark (type of resurrection of Christ corresponding to the same type seen in baptism).
Again, you are missing the point! LITERAL water in neither case saves anyone. In both cases it is the FIGURE and they correspond with each other FIGURATIVELY as both present in FIGURE the same death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ which literally saves.
Because they are "corresponding figures" of the same gospel neither LITERALLY REMOVES THE FILTH OF THE FLESH or SIN of the fleshly nature but these FIGURES are responses of those whose consciences have already been made good through faith in Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 9:14).
It was LITERALLY saved people who first entered the ark because PREVIOUSLY they found "grace in the eyes of the Lord" and it is those who have already first PROFESSED repentance of sins and belief in Christ who are fit subjects for baptism (Acts 2:40; 8:35-37).
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I basically agree with you but would like to ask your thoughts. Did "they." find grace in the eyes of the Lord or did Noah find grace in the eyes of the Lord and they were under the same relationship with Noah as were these in these verses? 1 Cor. 10:1,2 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Whilst one cannot arbitarily seperate the result from the cause, ie faith from regeneration one must differenetiate. For regeneration is an act of God, and believing is a response to that act of God. In the application of the various aspects of salvation one must place regeneration as a forrunner of faith. Look at John 3:3
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
If seeing the kingdom of God is an act of faith, then it is preceded by being born again.
look also at John 6:44
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Why do we come (an act of faith)? Well Jesus Christ tells us it is because we are drawn, the act of regeneration.
Baptists holding to the doctrines of grace cannot reject basic reformed soteriology and still hold to the doctrines of grace - just compare the Baptist confesion and the westminister confesion on these points.
LBCF — Chapter X: Of Effectual Calling
1. Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
WCF — Chapter X: Of Effectual Calling
1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
Notice that both documents present the exact same order of application.
Thanks for all your thoughts so far, which are much appreciated.
I'm interested also in Mark 16:16a - "whoever believes and is baptised is saved" which, again, on the face of it would suggest that both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation. What of this verse?
I'm interested also in Mark 16:16a - "whoever believes and is baptised is saved" which, again, on the face of it would suggest that both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation. What of this verse?
Michael Wrenn
New Member
I think it is unwise to try to establish doctrine on verses (9-20) which were not included in some of the oldest manuscripts.
Have you found them yet? It's really easy in this age of the internet search engine.....
Peter makes it clear that those in the ark and the ark and water are a corresponding "figure" with baptism. Although, literally it is only said of Noah that he found grace in the eyes of the Lord previous to building the ark, however, all eight in the FIGURE are represented as the saved "in Christ" before any water literally touched the ark.
Have you found them yet? It's really easy in this age of the internet search engine.....
So far, what you said about being regenerated and saved did not match with what the scriptures you gave in the other post said. What you are trying to say about Isaac, David, and John the Baptist could be wrong too. I just do not see what you are saying to be in the scriptures about them. I would like the exact scriptures you use so I can try to figure out where you get what you are saying. I tried the search engine, and what you say does not come up.
I think I really wanted to know is how are we to understand those who were baptized unto Moses. What does that mean.
The word means 'to dunk'. It is often used in the sense of being brought totally under the control, or influenced greatly, of something.
If you fall from a ladder you've been 'baptized' by [brought under total control and the influence of] gravity.
It was the destiny of the Israelites to be baptized unto Moses [brought under the influence and control of the Mosaic Covenant] .
"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of [bringing them under the influence of] the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
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The truth of the gospel is found in the FIGURES of the Old Testament. This is clearly seen in the FIGURE of the eight in the Ark during the flood. Jesus pointedly sees this in Jonah in the great fish three days and three nights. Paul sees this in the crossing of the red sea where they were completely immersed in regard to Moses a type of Christ as the ark was completely immersed in the deluge (waters coming up and water coming down). Christ is seen typified in the "rock" from which water was obtained in the wilderness.
The children of Israel were released from bondage prior to a type of baptism in the sea; they had committed themselves to Moses (a type of Christ) prior to a type of baptism in the Red Sea. The firstborn son had died (either human or the substitute for the human - Ex. 13:13) prior to their type of baptism in the Red Sea!
One of the most famous baptists that held that one cannot preach the Gospel to save those who already been regenerated and thus have no need to hear the message was charles Spurgeon!
take my que off him, that the Gospel is preached to dead Sinners, and the Hol;y Spirit quickens regenerates at that very moment his elect, and thus regeneration/faith to be seen as same event!
And putting aside your uncorroberated assertion of what Spurgeon believed, which by way makes no sense to me (probably because of the catagory errors)
- where is your scripture that supports your assertion?And putting aside your uncorroberated assertion of what Spurgeon believed, which by way makes no sense to me (probably because of the catagory errors)
The NT is extremely clear that the basis of a sinner being pardoned/forgiven/justified by God is the cross of jesus, His atoning death, but that sinners become saints and have eternal life WHEN theu belive in and receive Christ!
No such creature as one being regenerated by god, and walking around for say years before placing faith in jesus! NO NT example of that, as the sinners were preached Christ, the Holy spirit quickened/enabled them to believe, and they they received!
repentence/regeneration/faith all part tof same process , NOT placing them in their sequential order here, just saying that ALL happen at time of a person being saved by act and Will of God!
And putting aside your uncorroberated assertion of what Spurgeon believed, which by way makes no sense to me (probably because of the catagory errors)
1 Jn 5:1 uses the perfect tense verb translated "is born" with the present tense participle "beleiveth" demonstrating that action of the participle is CONTEMPORARY ACTION with the action of the verb. This same construction is used by John three more times in this epistle with "born" of God.
There is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever any more than there is such a thing as an unregenerated believer.
Also, the very nature of regeneration as described in Ephesians 2:1-3; 8-10; 4:17-19, 24; 2 Cor. 3:3-6; 4:5-6; James 1:18; Titus 3:5; Col. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:23-25; etc. demand that regeneration and coversion are in a LOGICAL cause and consequence relationship with each other but without any CHRONOlogical order but are SIMELTANEOUS in action as in the bullet and hole analogy.
God turns us but if God turns us we are turning and thus the cause and consequence are chronologically simeltaneous even though there is a distinction between cause and effect.
Your view has God turning us but we are not turning!