How Do They Know?

[Skandelon]

I answered it. You didn't like the answer. It is apparent that you won't like any answer but your own. This is no longer a debate or even a discussion.

Ain't that the truth.

 

[Winman]

It is very likely that Paul had undergone the new birth prior to his Damascus road experience. Otherwise why did our Savior ask Paul the following?

Acts 9:5, NKJV And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

The Damascus road event was in all likely hood Paul's conversion.

I agree Paul (Saul) believed on Jesus. But he did not receive the Holy Spirit until 3 days later. The scriptures clearly show this.

Can you admit that Paul obeyed Jesus before he received the Holy Spirit?

 

[DHK]

Just cannot be civil can you DHK? If I questioned your salvation as you have mine on two occasions on this thread I have no doubt that you would have reported me to the Administrator.

In the light of your question:

Since Salvation is a supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not already performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to believe. They don’t! Neither can they.

which is not a question but an assertion, I gave an appropriate answer.

I then gave a testimony and added an appropriate question in light of both testimony and your OP.

Originally Posted by DHK
God's Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.
I respectfully ask the same question of you? Does God's Spirit do the same for you?

Just cannot be civil can you DHK? If I questioned your salvation as you have mine on two occasions on this thread I have no doubt that you would have reported me to the Administrator.

You demand to know from a "free-willer" (as you demean us), how we can know that God has already performed an act of grace in our lives. And then go on to state obnoxiously that we don't know, and cannot know--which of course is false.

I give testimony contrary to your false assertion. You call it opinion, false, and non-factual.
I tell you how it is true, based on God's Word, and God's Spirit working in me.
Based on your obnoxious statement that we cannot know any act of grace performed in us, I said this:

"I respectfully ask the same question of you? Does God's Spirit do the same for you?"

Now you charge me of being uncivil, calling into question your salvation, and are quite upset. Is there something wrong OR? Most Christians delight in speaking of their salvation.

 

[Winman]

If you read the NT especially, believers knew when they were saved. It is something you can know. Paul told king Agrippa of how the Lord spoke to him on the road to Damascus. This was his conversion. This is when being confronted by the Lord himself, he realized he was in the wrong persecuting Christians, and that Jesus was indeed the promised Savior the Jews had long hoped for. He repented immediately and trusted himself to Jesus, and determined to do whatever Jesus told him to do.

But he knew what happened, and he told many about it.

When the Ethiopian eunuch trusted Christ, he knew it.

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

The Ethiopian eunuch did not wonder whether or not he believed in Jesus, he knew it.

Believing on Jesus means to trust your salvation into his hands. It means to place your very soul in his hands and rely upon him only to save you. It means to cast yourself upon him.

I know when I got saved. I heard the word of God and realized I was a sinner in danger of perishing. I also learned that Jesus had died for me and paid my sins and would save me if I called upon him for forgiveness. I got down on my knees and admitted to Jesus I was a sinner and that I knew the wages of sin is death. I told Jesus I believed he was the Son of God and died for me. And I asked Jesus to forgive my sins and come into my heart.

You see, I know I did that. I remember it like it happened yesterday. And I know I meant it. I cast my soul upon Jesus, I trusted my soul to him. And I know by the word of God I am saved.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The scriptures say you can know if you are saved. If you have trusted your soul to Jesus and depended upon him only to save you, you can know you are saved by the word of God.

 

[Winman]

And I am to say one more thing. Making faith into some king of magical, mystical thing simply confuses people. That came straight out of the Catholic church and their mysticism. They try to teach people that only they know and understand the deep spiritual secrets and that the common man is dependent upon them. It makes a man a slave. That was their whole intent and desire. You are forever in fear, they held your soul in their hands.

The scriptures do not make salvation difficult, man does. The scriptures say whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Does that sound hard? Does that sound like some magical, mystical thing you cannot understand? No, a small child can easily understand it.

All you have to do is ask. That is what Jesus told the woman at the well.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Does that sound difficult? Is that all magical and mystical? No, Jesus said if she knew the gift of God (eternal life) and who it was that was speaking to her (the Son of God), all she had to do was ASK and he would give her living water (Holy Spirit)

Does that sound hard? Do you have to be a theologian to understand that?

How about Romans 10:13?

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Turning faith into some magical, mystical thing that you have no idea if you have or not will only lead to torment of soul. You will never know if you are saved.

But can you know if you got down on your knees and admitted you were a sinner to Jesus and asked him to save you and give you this living water, the Holy Spirit? Of course you can.

Just believe the scriptures and call on Jesus to forgive all your sins.

 

[OldRegular]

If you read the NT especially, believers knew when they were saved. It is something you can know. Paul told king Agrippa of how the Lord spoke to him on the road to Damascus. This was his conversion. This is when being confronted by the Lord himself, he realized he was in the wrong persecuting Christians, and that Jesus was indeed the promised Savior the Jews had long hoped for. He repented immediately and trusted himself to Jesus, and determined to do whatever Jesus told him to do.

Regeneration or the new birth is not the same as conversion.

 

[OldRegular]

I agree Paul (Saul) believed on Jesus. But he did not receive the Holy Spirit until 3 days later. The scriptures clearly show this.

Can you admit that Paul obeyed Jesus before he received the Holy Spirit?

You need to read the Book of Acts and the several incidents where the Holy Spirit was received.

 

[OldRegular]

If you read the NT especially, believers knew when they were saved. It is something you can know. Paul told king Agrippa of how the Lord spoke to him on the road to Damascus

<snip>

The scriptures say you can know if you are saved. If you have trusted your soul to Jesus and depended upon him only to save you, you can know you are saved by the word of God.

So! What is your point other than one can know if he is saved.

 

[OldRegular]

And I am to say one more thing. Making faith into some king of magical, mystical thing simply confuses people.

Who has made faith into some "magical, mystical thing".I simply say that saving faith is the gift of GOD. You claim that saving faith is inherent in man yet cannot explain why most do not exercise it!

 

[OldRegular]

I said in the OP: Since Salvation is a supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not already performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to believe. They don’t! Neither can they

Jesus Christ said essentially the same thing when talking about the New Birth, a Supernatural event

John 3:3-10, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Even ole Nicodemus, a Master of Israel, did not understand.

I know that most people believe that when they exercise faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation they believe it is of their very own free will. My question is: how do you know it is your free will, how do you know that GOD did not give you that gift of Faith, how do you know that GOD did not exercise HIS will to ensure that your so-called free will did as HE desired.

 

[just-want-peace]

This whole thread sounds like the old philosophical question of the guy who once dreamed he was a butterfly.

After deeply and agonizingly pondering that dream for a few days, he got to the point that he wasn't real sure whether he was a man that had dreamed he was a butterfly, OR if he is now a butterfly dreaming he is a man; with no way to prove either.

While the OP may have been somewhat legitimate, the discussion has deteriorated to this level!:BangHead:

 

[David Michael Harris]

While the OP may have been somewhat legitimate, the discussion has deteriorated to this level!:BangHead:

Love it, they need to add that smiley to the choices, problem is it's 2 together I believe.

 

[DHK]

I said in the OP: Since Salvation is a supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not already performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to believe. They don’t! Neither can they

The thread should have been shut down after the OP was stated. One does not answer his own question with such bias that it is closed for all discussion thereafter. That is what you have done right from the OP, the very first post. What is the real purpose of this thread or your agenda?

Jesus Christ said essentially the same thing when talking about the New Birth, a Supernatural event

You misunderstand what Jesus says about the new birth.

Even ole Nicodemus, a Master of Israel, did not understand.

It is evident that he misunderstood at first. But he did come to an understanding of the new birth. He became a follower of Christ, one, who along with Joseph of Arimathea procured the body and helped bury it. They did so at great risk to themselves.

I know that most people believe that when they exercise faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation they believe it is of their very own free will. My question is: how do you know it is your free will, how do you know that GOD did not give you that gift of Faith, how do you know that GOD did not exercise HIS will to ensure that your so-called free will did as HE desired.

Does God give you faith that your car will start when you put the key in the ignition and turn it? That is faith. It is trust and/or confidence in someone who said that if the key is inserted and turned that the car will start. You believed it. You tried it. It worked. It has worked time and time again. Sometimes it may have failed. That is because cars are made by man, and both man and their products are fallible.

But God is not fallible; He is infallible. His promises are perfect and He never fails. I can put my trust in him, and time after time He will never ever fail. It is the same faith. It is my faith, not God's faith. I am not waiting for some esoteric mystical experience for God to zap me with a mysterious bolt of lightening and a voice out of heaven to tell me: "Now you have faith." It doesn't work that way. It never has, and never will.

Now the onus is on you to prove that faith is given by God, and how a Calvinist knows when that faith is given by God and how he knows he is zapped by God with that faith.
Can you do that? What evidence can you bring forth? What evidence can you bring forth that an unsaved person is given faith, seeing that God never gives faith or any spiritual gift to an unsaved person.

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. That faith does not come from God.
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God."
The faith is a faith not given by God, but faith that comes from oneself.

 

[OldRegular]

This whole thread sounds like the old philosophical question of the guy who once dreamed he was a butterfly.

After deeply and agonizingly pondering that dream for a few days, he got to the point that he wasn't real sure whether he was a man that had dreamed he was a butterfly, OR if he is now a butterfly dreaming he is a man; with no way to prove either.

While the OP may have been somewhat legitimate, the discussion has deteriorated to this level!:BangHead:

Instead of beating your head against the wall :type:.

 

[Skandelon]

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. That faith does not come from God.
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God."
The faith is a faith not given by God, but faith that comes from oneself.

True. Otherwise would it make sense for Jesus to rebuke men for their lack of faith? If all faith comes from God, then it would only make sense for Jesus to rebuke God for not giving them more faith, right?

The only sense that faith is from God is that "faith cometh by hearing" and that which we hear, "the word of Christ," is from God. We are responsible to have faith and act accordingly.

 

[OldRegular]

Does God give you faith that your car will start when you put the key in the ignition and turn it? That is faith. It is trust and/or confidence in someone who said that if the key is inserted and turned that the car will start. You believed it. You tried it. It worked. It has worked time and time again. Sometimes it may have failed. That is because cars are made by man, and both man and their products are fallible.

That argument is nonsensical. You are reducing salvation to the same level as starting your car? For that GOD the Son laid aside HIS Glory, t took upon Himself the form of a man, lived among sinful men, and in time died for the sins of GOD's chosen ones. Pathetic.:tear::tear:

 

[OldRegular]

But God is not fallible; He is infallible. His promises are perfect and He never fails. I can put my trust in him, and time after time He will never ever fail. It is the same faith. It is my faith, not God's faith. I am not waiting for some esoteric mystical experience for God to zap me with a mysterious bolt of lightening and a voice out of heaven to tell me: "Now you have faith." It doesn't work that way. It never has, and never will.

No it doesn't work that way unless you are the Apostle Paul. However, you might learn a little from the experience of the prophet Elijah!

1 Kings:19:11-13
11. And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12. And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

There may not even be a still small voice only the realization that your perception of your sinful state and your attitude toward God has changed, as John Dagg said in an earlier post.

 

[Skandelon]

That argument is nonsensical. You are reducing salvation to the same level as starting your car? For that GOD the Son laid aside HIS Glory, t took upon Himself the form of a man, lived among sinful men, and in time died for the sins of GOD's chosen ones. Pathetic.:tear::tear:

I think you missed the point. He was in no way "reducing salvation to the same level as starting your car." It was an analogy.

Was Jesus reducing salvation to farming when he used the analogy of sowing seeds?

The point, that you seem to miss, is that men choose to practice faith in things all the time. Buddists believe in their false religion and change their entire lives to live accordingly. You have no problem saying they choose to do that freely, but for some reason in your system God has made it IMPOSSIBLE for men to willingly believe the truth of Christianity. Why? And where does the bible teach such non-sense?

 

[OldRegular]

True. Otherwise would it make sense for Jesus to rebuke men for their lack of faith? If all faith comes from God, then it would only make sense for Jesus to rebuke God for not giving them more faith, right?

The only sense that faith is from God is that "faith cometh by hearing" and that which we hear, "the word of Christ," is from God. We are responsible to have faith and act accordingly.

Romans 10:17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It is obvious from this Scripture that the "Faith that saves" is not inherent in man. Sounds to me like the "Faith that saves comes from GOD" and is not like the so-called faith that your car will start when you turn the key.

 

[OldRegular]

Now the onus is on you to prove that faith is given by God, and how a Calvinist knows when that faith is given by God and how he knows he is zapped by God with that faith.

Ephesians 2:1-8, NKJV
1. And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

This passages tells us that while we were yet dead in trespasses and sins GOD made us alive and then gave us the gift of Faith. I realize you reject what this Scripture says. Blame it on your much vaunted free will.