I have no interest in continuing down your trail away from the topic, which is how to know true doctrine as taught in scripture. We are to study to show ourselves approved, rather than be tossed about by every wave of man-made doctrine.
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How do you know true doctrine.
- Thread starter Hobie
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I have no interest in continuing down your trail away from the topic, which is how to know true doctrine as taught in scripture. We are to study to show ourselves approved, rather than be tossed about by every wave of man-made doctrine.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Hobie,
God is the one who opens blind eyes ( Isaiah 42:7, Isaiah 42:16, Luke 24:45, Acts of the Apostles 26:18, Ephesians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 4:6, 1 Peter 2:9 ) ...
Physical as well as spiritual.
Believers have had their eyes opened by God...they didn't do it themselves.
He called them out of spiritual darkness ( 1 Peter 2:9 )...
They didn't "flip the light switch" of their own accord.
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Walpole
Well-Known Member
Once again, Apostolic succession is the safeguard and antidote to apostasy.
It is the Church's ultimate trump card.
Studying scripture through the filter of man-made doctrines is like washing clothes in a pig sty.
Catholics think their filter presents truth. Calvinists think their filter presents truth. Atheists think their filter presents truth. All could be wrong, but all cannot be correct. And yes, my traditional baptist filter has the same liability.
But all of us can see when ad hominems are used it signals the use of fallacy. Ditto for misrepresentations of others. When you see scripture not specifically referenced, beware. For example, when you see someone allegedly quoting scripture saying God knows the end from the beginning, when it actually says God declares the end from the beginning.
We need to become familiar with the tools of deceit. Add a little, remove a little, redefine a little, and behold, we have made scripture to no effect by the traditions of men.
Catholics think their filter presents truth. Calvinists think their filter presents truth. Atheists think their filter presents truth. All could be wrong, but all cannot be correct. And yes, my traditional baptist filter has the same liability.
But all of us can see when ad hominems are used it signals the use of fallacy. Ditto for misrepresentations of others. When you see scripture not specifically referenced, beware. For example, when you see someone allegedly quoting scripture saying God knows the end from the beginning, when it actually says God declares the end from the beginning.
We need to become familiar with the tools of deceit. Add a little, remove a little, redefine a little, and behold, we have made scripture to no effect by the traditions of men.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
You cannot study the New Testament Scriptures apart from the context in which they were written: The Tradition of the Church. The Scriptures reflect the living faith of the Church.
---> Luke 1:1-4
The folly of Protestantism was starting their various religions using another religion's Scriptures. At least the Mormons and SDA were original enough to come up with their own set of "Scriptures."
---> Luke 1:1-4
The folly of Protestantism was starting their various religions using another religion's Scriptures. At least the Mormons and SDA were original enough to come up with their own set of "Scriptures."
Your church affiliation does not determine whether or not you will be saved to spend eternity with God. God does!
[Jhn 5:21 ESV] 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
[Jhn 6:37 ESV] 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
After salvation and as spiritual maturity makes you aware that you are not in the proper environment to bring glory to God, He will cause you to make changes for your good and His glory!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
There is only one way to rightly divide the Scriptures, Sai:
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 11:15 ).
" At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. " ( Matthew 11:25-27 ).
It has to be revealed to them by the Lord Himself.
The Spirit guides them into all truth.
He only does that for His sheep, and they don't even have to do anything more than study His precious word for themselves.
"Systematic Theology" will never get one all the way there, because there is no system devised by men whereby anyone other than a saved person will ever be able to rightly divide the word of truth.
Otherwise, men are ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of that truth.
That said, the only "lens" we need as believers was already provided to us...
His Spirit ( 1 John 2:20-27 ).
I wish you well, and may God bless you in many ways.
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It is obvious that with thousands of new Christian denominations with each claiming to have "the truth", many have either not really listened to the Holy Spirit or have been guided by the wrong spirit.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
The reason for the thousands of new denominations all claiming to have the truth?
" But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." ( 2 Timothy 3:13 ).
Sai
Well-Known Member
That’s what defines them as biblical cults, their extra books. The same reason why Roman Catholicism isn’t a cult (don’t have their own additional books) but is Satan’s counterfeit church.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Again, I agree.
The heresy of Pelagianism ( and then after that "Semi-Pelagianism" ) was put to rest in the 400's and 500's, respectively.
Then not long after, it re-surfaced and is now known as "Molinism" in some circles, and "Arminianism" in others.
"Apostolic succession" is a man-made principle, and the Lord has never decreed that anyone would ever succeed Him to lead His church.
It is built upon Him as the rock, and not the "stone" that was Peter.
He is the head of the corner ( Psalms 118:22, Matthew 21:42 ).
His church is built upon Him.
Also:
" Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." ( Ephesians 2:19-22 ).
The foundation is the apostles and prophets, and there are no more apostles.
There were only 13 apostles including Paul, and the last of them died over 1,800 years ago.
Therefore, there is no such thing as "apostolic succession".
It is an invention of men used to give an institution of men legitimacy in the eyes of men.
As believers, we are all prophets, priest and kings.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
One can call themselves an apostle all they want...
If one does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, they are none of His ( Romans 8:9 ).
The marks of that Spirit are here:
Galatians 5:22-23.
Anyone can claim to have the right doctrines, practices and "right to be the leader"...
But in the eyes of God, only His people that He has granted repentance to, and enjoy His unmerited favor, are the ones to whom are given the gift of eternal life.
No institution of men can lay claim to that.
Have you not read that the Lord does not want believers seeking to rule His people as the Gentiles rule over their people, with kings and priests?
See Matthew 20:25-27.
It's called the "Doctrine of the Nicolaitains" ( Revelation 2:6 ), and the Lord hates it.
This may seem harsh @Walpole, but I don't owe my allegiance to an institution that has been responsible for the deaths and torture of many tens of thousands ( if not millions ) over the centuries, and has only decreed curses to anyone who does not agree with its teachings.
If you are unable or unwilling to objectively look at it, see what it's been guilty of, and compare its behavior to that of how God's people are supposed to act in accordance with His commands, then I feel very sad for you and anyone else who keeps going along with it.
My prayers that God lift your hearts and minds to see the truths of His word will always be on my heart and on my lips, because to me, Rome and many other sects in this present day embody this:
" Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." ( Romans 10:1-4 ).
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None can claim that! But all of those who have the true Gospel can claim to be true church unlike Rome!
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Then why would anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ reject what He says, we need to ask God to open our eyes and then follow fearlessly what we are shown.
Revelation 22:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Believe in the Lord Jesus, accept the good news, and be eternally secured and saved is what we need to believe!
Hobie
Well-Known Member
I think Christ clearly answers...
Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Jesus did the ‘Sermon on the Mount’, and their were many astonishing ideas in the words in it... “Blessed are the poor in spirit. . .blessed the clean of heart. . .blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness.” The Beatitudes are Jesus’s perfect way of life, but Jesus astonished even the learned priests and scribes as a child. Look at Luke 2: 40-50
Luke 2:40-50 King James Version (KJV)
40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
Notice how they were astonished at His knowledge of the Scriptures, we can see how we need to study our Bibles more. We have much more we can learn..
Luke 2:40-50 King James Version (KJV)
40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
Notice how they were astonished at His knowledge of the Scriptures, we can see how we need to study our Bibles more. We have much more we can learn..