Featured How does the holy spirit pray for us?

I do not know why I reply to your post...you never respond back!
What other part of scripture would you like to cut out of the Bible!

This passage is inspired Scripture and is part of the New Testament
canon. These verses are consistent with the rest of Scripture!

Mark 16:17-18 ...according to Jesus, speaking in tongues is not a subject of controversy, but instead it's for every believer. Neither Jesus nor the writers of Scripture ever canceled this promise or limited it to the first century, and therefore this promise is still in effect. Obviously not every Christian speaks in tongues, but this doesn't change the fact that Jesus' promise is still available to "those who believe."

 

THe "most" that you listen to must not understand plain scripture!


"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." (Mark 16:17-18)

Did just the apostles speak in tongues? NO!

 

NO! You misread my post! We were speaking of belief/faith period! I made the illustration that we can not receive anything from God without believing what is in his Word...that includes salvation!

Then you will never speak in tongues!

I was saved for years! Was taught just like you are/were! So for years I was in unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! It was not until I repented of my unbelief about tongues and turned to God for the truth!

His word is pretty plain and does not contradict! To believe as you do and others I have to take out certain scriptures...like "speaking to God"..."For if I pray in tongues my spirit prayeth".."Pray with the spirit AND with my understanding" (Paul explains what speaking with his understanding is in vs.19)..."Bless with teh spirit"..just to name a few!

 

I am a charismatic ( I believe the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is still for today)! I did not say that was tongues in Rom.8. I would like you to answer the same question I have asked others..."How does the Holy Spirit pray when we do not know what we should pray for?"

I have always said they were a known language! The speaker did not learn the language, it is supernatual. The speaker did not go to school to learn the language.

...and what scripture do you have to prove your theory?

To believe as you do you have to ignore 1 Cor. 14 where Paul is correcting the use of the prayer language/praying in the spirit in church without the interpretation! He says tongues is "speaking to God" "tongues is praying with the spirit" "Blessing with the spirit"...that sounds like prayer to me!

 

I agree! ...and it is the Holy Spirit that gives that utterance (Acts 2).

 

Your statement is in conflict with the Bible. When the BIble says "CAN NOT BE UTTERED" it means.....CAN NOT BE UTTERED. The Bible does not say anywhere that the Holy Spirit gives utterances, that is charismatic theology reading something into the Bible that it does not say.

Now if YOU believe that, than you can admit that's your personal belief, but you can not say that the Bible agrees with you because Romans 8:26 proves it doesn't.

 

I agree that Romans says it can not be uttered, I am not saying it is tongues in Rom. 8. I ask you the question that you avoided as others have..."How does the HOly Spirit pray for you when you do not know what to pray for?"

Really, Did you read Acts 2?
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

 

Post 90 is the correction. Don't get why it's not isolating the comments though

 

It says they began to SPEAK with other tongues, NOT PRAY. ANd my question to you still stands, where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit PRAYS because that is your question.

The example you gave of Acts is followed by believers who spoke in different known foreign languages, but your question is about praying. You are mixing 2 different things together in your question by making the false connection between speaking and praying. Show me in the Bible where the Holy Spirit is praying since that is what you are asking.

Furthermore, the antecedent to the one who does not utter is the Holy Spirit " but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" The action described at the end of the verse is toward the subject, the Spirit, not the believer. So the Spirit is not causing any utterances on His behalf, nor on the believers behalf, when it says "Can Not Be Uttered" that applies to both, there is no utterance at all from this verse.

 

Response to Post #84

You may not have said it, but in your own words you're question "How does the Holy Spirit pray" reveals that you are relying on Romans 8:26 even though you are not quoting it, because that is the only place in the NT that mentions the Holy Spirit "praying" (although that's not actually what the text says). But as stated, Romans 8:26 proves that your theory is wrong.

You are not getting an answer to your question because your question itself is not legitimate. Show us where the Bible says that the Holy Spirit prays for us if you want an answer to that question. You can not create your own caricature of Bible doctrine and then critique those who do not see what you think is there. If you are going to ask a question, then you need to show where the Bible supports your question.

There is a difference in admitting that tongues are a known language, and then claiming it is a coded prayer language between the Holy Spirit and God. The Biblical evidence is that the Holy Spirit caused a supernatural altering of languages that the unbeliever would understand when the gospel was given to them from a speaker who did not speak the same language. That is totally different that using the same passages to prove something that it does not say (that the supernatural altering of the languages were for praying).

Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8.

Paul is not correcting the use of "prayer language" he is correcting the abuse of tongues. When Paul does mention "pray in an unknown tongue" he is speaking in a hypothetical rhetorical manner: "For IF I pray in an unknown tongue" and he is criticizing the usage of tongues in such a manner.

If you notice there is a distinction being made between praying in an unknown tongue (v. 14)-which Paul discourages-and praying in the Spirit and praying with understanding in v. 15:

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

When you see the distinction from verse 14 and 15, you see that praying in a tongue, and praying in the Spirit are not the same thing.

When Paul says the person is "speaking to God" Paul is saying that "if it was even possible for anyone to understand your gibberish, the only person that could possibly understand what you are saying is God because nobody else can understand you". Paul's emphasis is on understanding what is being said, which means that all of the references in ch 14 must be understand in light of the goal Paul is trying to accomplish. Paul is not endorsing "speaking to God" in tongues, and all of the criticisms against the abuse of tongues proves that.

Now something else to think about. If tongues was a prayer language that only God understood, THEN WHY WOULD THERE BE A NEED FOR AN INTERPRETER!! If a "prayer language" was a crypted code between the believer and God, then no interpreter would be able to interpret it, and there wouldn't be any need for even the presence of an interpreter, yet Paul states the presence of interpreters is a rule. That alone proves that the use of tongues is not a prayer language.


When Paul gives the list of gifts in Ephesians 4, and Romans 12:6-8, tongues is not on the list.

I just saw my screw up, I used HTML instead of Quotes LOL

 

Is intercession prayer? Rom. 8:26

It says the Holy Spirit gives the utterance in Acts 2. It is the disciples that are doing the actual speaking! Rom. 8 is where it says the Spirit ITSELF makes intercession for us. I am not saying Rom. is tongues! I just ask the simple question..How does the Holy Spirit pray for us when we do not know what to pray for?

I agree with Rom. 8 it is the Spirit Itself that makes intercession! No utterance from man in Rom. So...again...How does the Spirit make intercession/pray for us?

 

Again, the Holy Spirit gave the utterance in Acts 2...they spoke in tongue/languages! So speaking in tongues is when the HOly Spirit manifest himself through us in languages we do not know or have learned!

Rom. 8 is not tongues! This is not uttered by man! But is still says the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us when we do not know what to pray, right? So...AGAIN..I ask..How in Rom. 8 does the Holy Spirit ITSELF make intercession for us?

Rom. 8 says the Spirit makes intercession for us when we do not know what to pray! No utterance by man! So HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? It is not a trick question! It is a genuine question?

Lets just stick to the OP because we are not communicating very well going back and forth! But for the record...nowhere does it say tongues is for preaching!

That does not say to preach in tongues! You added that to fit your theory! Look at Acts 10 and 19 and tell me who they were preaching to? Acts 2 Peter preached not the ones speaking in tongues...they were magnifying God in languages that they had never learned!

He says in 1 Cor. 14:2 that tongue is speaking to God! Acts 2 and 10 verify that they were magnifying God! Praying in the spirit is tongues according to 1 Cor. 14:14. There were two ways of praying.. tongues and with the understanding! Paul explains what tongues is in vs. 2 and 14..speaking to God/praying with the spirit. He explains what the speaking with understanding is in verse 19!

The correction is speaking in tongues/speaking to God/praying in the spirit without the interpretation so the assembly can be edified!

No, praying in the spirit is tongue vs. 14! THe distinction is between praying with the spirit/tongues and the understanding! He is not discouraging tongues...he just said make sure when you pray in the spirit you interpret so others can say AMEN! He gives futher instructions in vs 28 saying if there is no interpretation then you are to keep silent and SPEAK BETWEEN YOU AND GOD! That is prayer!

THe criticism was tongues without interpetation! Not tongues itself! He said forbid not to speak in tongues! He spoke in tongues more than anyone..just not in the assembly!

THe interpretation was for the assembly..not for God! God understands all languages! You do realize that the interpretation of tongues is just as supernatural as tongues itself! Vs. 13 tells the one that is speaking in tongue to pray that he may interpret too! THat is proof that the speaker himself does not know the language he is speaking...or Paul would not tell him to pray for the interpretation!

You do realize the Eph. 4 are ministry gifts? Do you not see that most of the gifts listed in Rom. and Eph. are not in 1 Cor. either...so what does that prove?

 

And by saying, "that includes salvation", you compare speaking in tongues to salvation; you put speaking in tongues on the same level as salvation. Yet, you keep trying to say that we don't need to speak in tongues; but that if we believe what the bible says, we will speak in tongues--which implies that we don't believe what the bible says. Are we allowed to believe some parts of the bible, but not others? If we don't believe the WHOLE bible, what does that make us?

And we've made a pretty compelling case that you're mis-reading those passages, and injecting (adding) your own meaning into them. So how do you reconcile that?

 

The comparison was about faith! Not just tongues and salvation! You do not believe in tongues for today! So you will never speak in tongues, correct? Some may never believe for salvation...so they will never be saved! You are reading into my post what is not there! The comparison is faith! It takes faith to walk out all of God's promises! I just named two!

Well, Until you can prove to me that speaking to God is not prayer! You have no case! It is plain when he tells us tongues is speaking to God, vs 2! Tongues is praying in the spirit, vs. 13! Blessing for someone to say "amen" is praying in vs. 16-17!

Paul is plain in the difference in praying with the spirit AND with the understanding! He explains what "with understanding" is in verse 19!

 

Did the apostles believe in speaking in tongues before the events in Acts 2?

But it has been proven to you that speaking in tongues is not a "prayer language"; you reject that proof.

You do not understand basic grammar. The man who speaks an unknown tongue speaks mysteries (verse 2).

Wrong verse, I think. Verse 13 says if you speak in an unknown tongue, pray for the understanding; and then goes on to say if you pray in an unknown language, the understanding is unfruitful; and then goes on to say that we should pray with the spirit and with the understanding also. "And." "Also." Not just pray with the spirit, but also with the understanding.

And yet, verses 16-17 are telling the Corinthians they're doing something wrong, and instructing them on how they should do it.

You really need to read verse 15 again. And then you need to read verses 21-22 again, and give them serious, prayerful consideration. These two verses explain the true reason for speaking in languages.

 

I and others have proven by scripture that Charismatic tongues is not speaking to anybody. It is in no way a language; it is merely gibberish and the vain babblings of deceived minds. It is you who mangles the scriptures, completely ignores context, and is willfully blinded by occult-based doctrine invented by men 113 years ago in direct contradiction to scripture and two millenia of teaching.

So, it is you who is in unbelief: unbelief and denial of the clear word of God. You do not speak in the tongues that the scriptures witness to; therefore, your "tongues" do not come from God. So, you are not speaking to God.

You are in unbelief. You do not believe the scriptures. You base your experience on the occult-inspired doctrine of men, a doctrine which is only 113 years old. You should come out of your unbelief and get back to the scriptures. Put down your shamanism!

 

Does everyone see how Charismatics make tongues the be-all and end-all of everything? They put it right at the top of the pyramid of the gifts, whereas Paul puts it at the bottom. All the distinctive Charismatic doctrines deny the scriptural teaching: about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, about the gift of tongues, about a prayer language. Charismatics rewrite scripture, taking it out of context, to try and reconcile it with their occult-inspired doctrine and practices which were invented 113 years ago and which were unknown until then.

I believe in the HS baptism; I received it when I believed, just like every believer does. Every believer is also given at least one gift. Neither the HS baptism nor the spiritual gifts have to be sought after. And the evidence of having believed and received the HS baptism is the fruit of the spirit, not tongues or any other gift. And yet Charismatics use their unscriptural doctrines and practices to divide Christians into two classes: those who have achieved the higher spiritual plane, and those poor misguided inferior people who are still in "unbelief". Clearly, the ones who are in unbelief are the Charismatics who deny the word of God and set their experiences against the word of God and in contradiction to it.

 

Yes! Jesus told them about it in Mark 16! They believed Jesus!

I missed that proof in scriptures! People have given their opinions about scripture and ignored other scriptures to prove there point!

When someone speaks in tongues , he does not understand what he is saying. That is why the verse says "no one understands." If you notice "him" is in italics. It was added to the text! Do yo know what "mysteries" mean in Greek?

I pray with both! Paul explains what understanding is in verse 19! One prayer you do not understand..it is mysteries! The other prayer you understand with your mind!

THe correction is to do it with interpretation so the assembly can be edified!

I do not need tongues as a sign! I am already a believer! Tongues is not JUST a sign to the unbeliever! It is one purpose!
What do you believe the sign is for an unbeliever? What sign was it in Acts 2, 10, 19?

 

No one has proven with scriptures that tongues is not speaking to God!

Well, God tells me different in His word...my faith is in His Word, not yours! Your unbelief can not take away what God has given me!

Again! No ones unbelief in tongues can take away what I know is from God!

 

Can't you see that most charismatics are defending tongues more than any other gift! You do not challenge the other gifts...just tongues! Paul says that every part of the Body is important..and we are not to say we have no need of any part!

I do not see myself more spiritual than those that do not speak in tongues! So you judgement is wrong! If you do not believe...then that is unbelief! I was in unbelief about this too at one point! We chose to believe!