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No one has proven with scriptures that tongues is not speaking to God!
Well, God tells me different in His word...my faith is in His Word, not yours! Your unbelief can not take away what God has given me!
Again! No ones unbelief in tongues can take away what I know is from God!
Well you confidence does not change the fact that God has confirmed the truth in His Word in my life!You are the one who is unbelief: you do not believe the clear teachings of scripture.
I have also made it quite clear that I believe that all the gifts of the spirit may be in operation today. I simply have seen no evidence that tongues are, except for possibly in two cases I witnessed.
Based on what you have said, I am confident you do not speak in scriptural tongues.
Then they also believed they could take up serpents and drink poison. Let's include those in our discussion.Yes! Jesus told them about it in Mark 16! They believed Jesus!
You didn't miss it. You wrote it off as "opinion," and rejected it. And frankly, you've ignored other scriptures to prove your own points.I missed that proof in scriptures! People have given their opinions about scripture and ignored other scriptures to prove there point!
It means something not understood. Now, how does Paul go on to describe those that can't be understood?When someone speaks in tongues , he does not understand what he is saying. That is why the verse says "no one understands." If you notice "him" is in italics. It was added to the text! Do yo know what "mysteries" mean in Greek?
What exactly--EXACTLY--does Paul say in verse 19? You don't truly understand this verse, because you're rejecting and and also from verse 15.I pray with both! Paul explains what understanding is in verse 19! One prayer you do not understand..it is mysteries! The other prayer you understand with your mind!
You first said that verses 16-17 were proof of praying; now you admit that these verses were correction. It then follows that they were praying incorrectly. Before you answer, prayerfully consider that.THe correction is to do it with interpretation so the assembly can be edified!
And thus, you reject verse 22, doing exactly what you accuse us of doing.I do not need tongues as a sign! I am already a believer! Tongues is not JUST a sign to the unbeliever! It is one purpose!
What do you believe the sign is for an unbeliever? What sign was it in Acts 2, 10, 19?
Well you confidence does not change the fact that God has confirmed the truth in His Word in my life!
Now maybe you would like to get off me personally and discuss His Word! I know it is alot easier to attack the person...but I prefer discussing the Word!
Those that do not believe in the Manifestation of the Holy Spirit really get hung up on Mark 16...but..that is discussed in another thread! This thread is about how the Holy Spirit prays for us. Do you know how the Spirit ITSELF prays for us without utterance?Then they also believed they could take up serpents and drink poison. Let's include those in our discussion.
Well, I guess we are at a stand still because I see you doing the same thing! I have proven over and over that speaking to God is prayer! But you throw it off as my misinterpretation! But this thread is about how does the Holy Spirit pray for us!You didn't miss it. You wrote it off as "opinion," and rejected it. And frankly, you've ignored other scriptures to prove your own points.
Not edifying to the assembly without the interpretation! The correction was not that speaking to God/praying in the spirit/blessing with the spirit is wrong...just make sure it is interpreted so all can benefit from the prayer.It means something not understood. Now, how does Paul go on to describe those that can't be understood?
I understand very clear...but I might not be coming across clear to you..let me try again...What exactly--EXACTLY--does Paul say in verse 19? You don't truly understand this verse, because you're rejecting and and also from verse 15.
Their prayers were good. It just did not benefit the assembly! The correction was how it was to be done in the assembly!You first said that verses 16-17 were proof of praying; now you admit that these verses were correction. It then follows that they were praying incorrectly. Before you answer, prayerfully consider that.
No, I have discussed that in detail in other threads! But this thread is about Rom. 8 isn't it?And thus, you reject verse 22, doing exactly what you accuse us of doing.
Your personal opinion of me has been noted several times! But God's opinion is what I am most concerned about! So quit boring the posters and lets get back to the scriptures! We will just have to agree to disagree about those issues!You can't objectively discuss the word because you deny the truth of it.
You do not have the Biblical gift of tongues, and if you don't have that, you don't have a private prayer language, either. What you have is a learned behavior. God has nothing to do with it.
Your personal opinion of me has been noted several times! But God's opinion is what I am most concerned about! So quit boring the posters and lets get back to the scriptures! We will just have to agree to disagree about those issues!
THis thread has got so off track...
Has anyone answered the question..
"How does the Holy Spirit ITSELF make intercession for us without utterance?"
Again..your opinion is noted!You don't show you are concerned about God's opinion. If you were, you would not follow unscriptural, anti-scriptural practices. I'm not saying your babblings come from Satan. I don't know that. More than likely, they don't come from anywhere but your mind. They certainly do not come from God.
Well KJV Says...The Holy Spirit is not an "it".
You brought up the verse; but now you don't want to discuss it.Those that do not believe in the Manifestation of the Holy Spirit really get hung up on Mark 16...but..that is discussed in another thread! This thread is about how the Holy Spirit prays for us.
With groanings that cannot be uttered.Do you know how the Spirit ITSELF prays for us without utterance?
In this--that we are both doing the same thing--we are agreed.Well, I guess we are at a stand still because I see you doing the same thing! I have proven over and over that speaking to God is prayer! But you throw it off as my misinterpretation! But this thread is about how does the Holy Spirit pray for us!
That is a HUGE clue to this conversation. Hope you're open to it.Not edifying to the assembly without the interpretation! The correction was not that speaking to God/praying in the spirit/blessing with the spirit is wrong...just make sure it is interpreted so all can benefit from the prayer.
Where does it indicate "sometimes"? Where does Paul imply that he will sometimes pray with the spirit, and he will sometimes pray with the understanding?I understand very clear...but I might not be coming across clear to you..let me try again...
I see two different types of praying: In the mind and in the spirit. Paul said that sometimes he prayed with his spirit (by the Holy Spirit), and sometimes he prayed with his mind. These are two different forms of praying. This is brought out more clearly in the Amplified Version:
"Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit - by the Holy Spirit that is within me; but I will also pray intelligently - with my mind and understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15, AMP)
Paul said that he prayed in two different ways. Sometimes he prayed with his mind, and sometimes he prayed with his spirit. You can see this in the previous passage (1 Corinthians 14:14) that when Paul prayed with his spirit he was praying in tongues in the Holy Spirit. So "praying with my spirit" and "praying in the Spirit" and "praying in tongues" are simply different ways of saying the same thing.
Paul was speaking of prayer in this verse.
Paul said that in church he would rather speak words of instruction (which people can understand), rather than an uninterpreted tongues (which people can't understand). In other words, it doesn't edify the church congregation when we pray in the spirit without the intepretation.
And that doesn't make you sit back and ask, "are my prayers benefitting the assembly?"Their prayers were good. It just did not benefit the assembly! The correction was how it was to be done in the assembly!
If that's true, then you'll admit that Romans 8 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.No, I have discussed that in detail in other threads! But this thread is about Rom. 8 isn't it?
Well KJV Says...
"26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
Maybe if you would stop concentrating on cutting every word I say down you would have looked it up for your self before making a degrading statement towards me!
You brought up the verse; but now you don't want to discuss it.
With groanings that cannot be uttered.
In this--that we are both doing the same thing--we are agreed.
That is a HUGE clue to this conversation. Hope you're open to it.
Where does it indicate "sometimes"? Where does Paul imply that he will sometimes pray with the spirit, and he will sometimes pray with the understanding?
Don't you see what you've done?!? You've changed the meaning of the verse by inserting a word that isn't there! "Sometimes" is neither implied nor stated nor used in the King James that I've been quoting; and neither is it in the amplified version that you just used. In fact, your own quote says: "I will pray with my spirit but I will also pray with my...understanding."
YOU are injecting a meaning into this that says "I will pray with my spirit sometimes; or I will pray with my understanding sometimes." This is NOT what the verse says, and it is NOT what it means.
Read the verse for what it says, not for what you need it to mean in order to support a philosophy of tongues.
And that doesn't make you sit back and ask, "are my prayers benefitting the assembly?"
If that's true, then you'll admit that Romans 8 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.
That is discussed in another thread! I do not take the snakes and poison literally...some do!You brought up the verse; but now you don't want to discuss it.
Yes! So the Holy Spirit prays without us uttering one word, correct?With groanings that cannot be uttered.
My agreement was that I saw you doing what you accused me of doing!In this--that we are both doing the same thing--we are agreed.
I am open to the truth!That is a HUGE clue to this conversation. Hope you're open to it.
verse 15-16 He prays both with the spirit and with understanding!Where does it indicate "sometimes"? Where does Paul imply that he will sometimes pray with the spirit, and he will sometimes pray with the understanding?
How does "sometimes" change the meaning? Take "sometimes" out and it still says He prays both.. with the spirit AND with understanding!Don't you see what you've done?!? You've changed the meaning of the verse by inserting a word that isn't there! "Sometimes" is neither implied nor stated nor used in the King James that I've been quoting; and neither is it in the amplified version that you just used. In fact, your own quote says: "I will pray with my spirit but I will also pray with my...understanding."
Again, take 'sometimes' out and it still mentions two kinds of praying!YOU are injecting a meaning into this that says "I will pray with my spirit sometimes; or I will pray with my understanding sometimes." This is NOT what the verse says, and it is NOT what it means.
Tongues is proven throughout the Acts and 1 Cor. 14 is correcting that use in the assembly!Read the verse for what it says, not for what you need it to mean in order to support a philosophy of tongues.
I do not pray in the spirit in the assembly! I am not called to do that! So I keep quiet and pray between Me and God as verse 28 tells me to do! But I have heard tongues and the interpretation and it is very edifying!And that doesn't make you sit back and ask, "are my prayers benefitting the assembly?"
Did you even read my first posts on this thread! I have said all along that the Spirit praying without utterance in Rom. was nor referring to tongues!If that's true, then you'll admit that Romans 8 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.
You dear sir! Miss the point of the question! I was just quoting the KJV! I know the Holy Spirit is a person!Maybe if you would get yourself a literal version like the NASB, you would see that it says the Spirit HIMSELF. I already knew what it said, dear, but you did not. The Spirit is not an "it". Although in Charismania, the Spirit is a lot of things that are not in the Bible.
My point is and has been that if you begin with a false premise, you get a false doctrine and practice. Every time you post, you confirm that.
You dear sir! Miss the point of the question! I was just quoting the KJV! I know the Holy Spirit is a person!
But you can not answer the question so you seek every opportunity to slander what I say!
Now...if it make you feel better I would say "himself"...but the KJV says "itself"...the meaning is the same!
HOW DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT 'HIMSELF' MAKE INTERCESSION FOR US WITHOUT US MAKING AN UTTERANCE???
Right! No one has answered this question that was asked in the OP!! You attempted too...but left part of it out!You have been answered many times over.
Right! No one has answered this question that was asked in the OP!! You attempted too...but left part of it out!
Then you should not take speaking in tongues literally. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the bible you want to follow, and which ones you don't.That is discussed in another thread! I do not take the snakes and poison literally...some do!
Get to the point.Yes! So the Holy Spirit prays without us uttering one word, correct?
And my agreement is that I see you doing what you accuse us of.My agreement was that I saw you doing what you accused me of doing!
First, YOU'RE the one that's making a distinction about two kinds of praying--when Paul is clearly--clearly--saying you must have both, not one or the other.I am open to the truth!
verse 15-16 He prays both with the spirit and with understanding!
How does "sometimes" change the meaning? Take "sometimes" out and it still says He prays both.. with the spirit AND with understanding!
NO. If this were truly two kinds of praying, then you would have verbiage that indicates "either"; but all you have is verbiage that says you must have both the spirit and the understanding. One prayer, with both spirit and understanding. NOT two prayers, one with spirit and one with understanding.Again, take 'sometimes' out and it still mentions two kinds of praying!
This has nothing to do with verse 15.Tongues is proven throughout the Acts and 1 Cor. 14 is correcting that use in the assembly!
"we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" In other words, the disciples were praising God, telling Him of His wonders, as in Psalms 40:5 and 66:3:
"Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)
"Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3)
Why were the disciples praising God in tongues? Because this is one of the primary purposes for tongues:
"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)
On the day of Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit (they were praying in the Spirit), they were not sharing the Gospel in tongues.
You've missed the point of 1 Corinthians 14 entirely.I do not pray in the spirit in the assembly! I am not called to do that! So I keep quiet and pray between Me and God as verse 28 tells me to do! But I have heard tongues and the interpretation and it is very edifying!
So what's your point?Did you even read my first posts on this thread! I have said all along that the Spirit praying without utterance in Rom. was nor referring to tongues!
But NO one has yet explained to me HOW the Spirit prays for us without our utterance. He knows what we should pray and makes intercession for us without us opening our mouth, right?