How does the holy spirit pray for us?

[awaken]

Then you should not take speaking in tongues literally. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the bible you want to follow, and which ones you don't.

Don't forget: if you're going to use Acts 2 as the example of the fulfillment of Mark 16, then you have to use Acts 28 as the example of the fulfillment of Mark 16, too.

If you study how Jesus used sepents the Bible it was not literal..but again that is another thread!

Get to the point.

First, YOU'RE the one that's making a distinction about two kinds of praying--when Paul is clearly--clearly--saying you must have both, not one or the other.

I do both! Do you?

NO. If this were truly two kinds of praying, then you would have verbiage that indicates "either"; but all you have is verbiage that says you must have both the spirit and the understanding. One prayer, with both spirit and understanding. NOT two prayers, one with spirit and one with understanding.

I pray both ways! Just like Paul says! He speaks in tongues more than all (one way) but in the church with his understanding (another way).

This has nothing to do with verse 15.

Yes! to understand tongues you have to take the all the teaching/mentionings of tongues in the Bible!

You've missed the point of 1 Corinthians 14 entirely.


So what's your point?

No, I understand 14...it is correcting speaking in tongues in the church...but not forbidding it!
My point is no one can answer the question!

 

[awaken]

You are agreeing with me...but you don't even know what I'm saying! See, that's why I wonder about your comprehension.

Pay close attention: Several have answered the question, and more than once!

THat agreement was sarcasm! But you didn't miss an opportunity did you!
PAY CLOSE ATTENTION! NNE ON THIS THREAD HAS ANSWERED THE OP!

 

[awaken]

HOW DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT PRAY FOR US WHEN WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO PRAY? A difficult question for unbelievers.

I do not think anyone can answer it! Because if they do they will have to back track what they have said in previous threads!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

THat agreement was sarcasm! But you didn't miss an opportunity did you!
PAY CLOSE ATTENTION! NNE ON THIS THREAD HAS ANSWERED THE OP!

Pay close attention: Several have answered it, and more than once. You just don't like the answer, so you ignore, deflect, and pretend it didn't happen. That's what you always do.

 

[awaken]

Pay close attention: Several have answered it, and more than once. You just don't like the answer, so you ignore, deflect, and pretend it didn't happen. That's what you always do.

It is ok if you do not know the answer! NO one including myself has answered it!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

It is ok if you do not know the answer! NO one including myself has answered it!

Several people have answered it.

 

[Don]

If you study how Jesus used sepents the Bible it was not literal..but again that is another thread!

WHY would He mix literal with non-literal in the same statement?!?

I do both! Do you?

Of course.

I pray both ways! Just like Paul says! He speaks in tongues more than all (one way) but in the church with his understanding (another way).

THERE YOU GO AGAIN. You are injecting into scripture. Paul is saying that he could speak in many different languages in the church; but that we should strive for the understanding. He's NOT indicating that it's okay to speak in tongues without an interpreter outside the church; in fact, he's not encouraging anyone to speak in tongues outside the church.

Yes! to understand tongues you have to take the all the teaching/mentionings of tongues in the Bible!

But how do those relate to verse 15?

No, I understand 14...it is correcting speaking in tongues in the church...but not forbidding it!

See verse 12.

My point is no one can answer the question!

Can you?

 

[Oldtimer]

HOW DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT PRAY FOR US WHEN WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO PRAY? A difficult question for unbelievers.

Originally Posted by awaken
THis thread has got so off track...
Has anyone answered the question..
"How does the Holy Spirit ITSELF make intercession for us without utterance?"

Answer: Romans 8:26 KJB
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Originally Posted by awaken
HOW DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT 'HIMSELF' MAKE INTERCESSION FOR US WITHOUT US MAKING AN UTTERANCE???

You've changed the question.

You were asking, in essence, how does God talk to Himself. The Holy Spirit is God dwelling within us. Humans use vocal cords to orally communicate with each other. Does any man know how the three aspects of the Godhead actually communicate with each other? Your phrasing of this question was like asking how does God the Son, Christ, physically interceed with God, the Father, on our behalf?

With this last phrasing of your question you've gone right back to the premise of Romans 8:26.

The Holy Spirit relays to Son and Father, via THEIR method of communication, what we know but can't find adequate words in our oral communication vocabulary to express.

I don't know about you. I do know, for myself, I'm at a loss for words to adquately explain the depth of a reaction (for lack of a better word) to an event. Depth of sorrow over a loss. Depth of horror felt in response to utter revulsion at some acts of depraved men. Joy in seeing a beautiful sunrise. Relief from a cool breeze while in sweltering heat. The Holy Spirit can fully convey what I cannot. I don't have to speak (utter) a single solitary word for Him to do so.

Now back to the OP for a moment.

HOW DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT PRAY FOR US WHEN WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO PRAY?

During this discussion, at times it seems that Spirit (upper case) has been confused with spirit (lower case). Maybe that's just me, and I'm tired from lack of sleep.

Sometimes it seems that it would be better to keep those separate by saying the Holy Ghost instead of the Holy Spirit. Then using the word "spirit" to relay the following, as applicable to the context of the discussion.

3: temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>
5a: the activating or essential principle influencing a person <acted in a spirit of helpfulness>
6a: a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back — J. A. Froude>
b: the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>
8: a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9: a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>
11a: prevailing tone or tendency <spirit of the age>
b: general intent or real meaning <spirit of the law>
13: enthusiastic loyalty <school spirit>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spirit

Sometimes, today, I don't know "what to pray". The single word that comes to mind is HELP! Not help in the sense of personal material gains. No, I don't pray to win the lottery, for example. But, instead in the sense of help to cope with whatever that has come my way. Help, so that at the end of the day, my Saviour can say "well done".

In a nutshell, FAITH that when I can't find the words to utter, the Holy Ghost conveys my cry of HELP without the use of any spoken "words". Romans 8:26

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Answer: Romans 8:26 KJB
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.



You've changed the question.

You were asking, in essence, how does God talk to Himself. The Holy Spirit is God dwelling within us. Humans use vocal cords to orally communicate with each other. Does any man know how the three aspects of the Godhead actually communicate with each other? Your phrasing of this question was like asking how does God the Son, Christ, physically interceed with God, the Father, on our behalf?

With this last phrasing of your question you've gone right back to the premise of Romans 8:26.

The Holy Spirit relays to Son and Father, via THEIR method of communication, what we know but can't find adequate words in our oral communication vocabulary to express.

I don't know about you. I do know, for myself, I'm at a loss for words to adquately explain the depth of a reaction (for lack of a better word) to an event. Depth of sorrow over a loss. Depth of horror felt in response to utter revulsion at some acts of depraved men. Joy in seeing a beautiful sunrise. Relief from a cool breeze while in sweltering heat. The Holy Spirit can fully convey what I cannot. I don't have to speak (utter) a single solitary word for Him to do so.

Now back to the OP for a moment.

HOW DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT PRAY FOR US WHEN WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO PRAY?

During this discussion, at times it seems that Spirit (upper case) has been confused with spirit (lower case). Maybe that's just me, and I'm tired from lack of sleep.

Sometimes it seems that it would be better to keep those separate by saying the Holy Ghost instead of the Holy Spirit. Then using the word "spirit" to relay the following, as applicable to the context of the discussion.


Sometimes, today, I don't know "what to pray". The single word that comes to mind is HELP! Not help in the sense of personal material gains. No, I don't pray to win the lottery, for example. But, instead in the sense of help to cope with whatever that has come my way. Help, so that at the end of the day, my Saviour can say "well done".

In a nutshell, FAITH that when I can't find the words to utter, the Holy Ghost conveys my cry of HELP without the use of any spoken "words". Romans 8:26

Thank you. Lack of sleep notwithstanding, that was good.

 

[DrJamesAch]

The problem is still with the question: How does the Holy Spirit pray? HE DOESN'T, and that's why his question can not be answered because the premise itself is erroneous.

He continues to use circular reasoning by saying that Romans 8:26 does not talk about tongues, but then uses Romans 8:26 to show that the Holy Spirit prays, and then that the Spirit gave utterance in Acts 2, thus mixing together 2 entirely different contexts.

But the fact is Romans 8:26 does not say that the Spirit prays, it says He intercedes because we don't know how to pray as we ought to. Us not knowing how to pray that provokes the Spirit's intercession does not mean that a leap has been made from our praying to the Holy Spirit praying. If the question had been "How does the Holy Spirit INTERCEDE for us" or even "How does the Holy Spirit HELP US PRAY" then there would have been room for discussion, but instead, the question was phrased to add something that the Bible does not say, in order to bootstrap his conclusion for an argument in favor of his charismatic interpretation of tongues.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

The problem is still with the question: How does the Holy Spirit pray? HE DOESN'T, and that's why his question can not be answered because the premise itself is erroneous.

He continues to use circular reasoning by saying that Romans 8:26 does not talk about tongues, but then uses Romans 8:26 to show that the Holy Spirit prays, and then that the Spirit gave utterance in Acts 2, thus mixing together 2 entirely different contexts.

But the fact is Romans 8:26 does not say that the Spirit prays, it says He intercedes because we don't know how to pray as we ought to. Us not knowing how to pray that provokes the Spirit's intercession does not mean that a leap has been made from our praying to the Holy Spirit praying. If the question had been "How does the Holy Spirit INTERCEDE for us" or even "How does the Holy Spirit HELP US PRAY" then there would have been room for discussion, but instead, the question was phrased to add something that the Bible does not say, in order to bootstrap his conclusion for an argument in favor of his charismatic interpretation of tongues.

Your assessment is absolutely spot on.

 

[Oldtimer]

Your assessment is absolutely spot on.

Agree!

:thumbsup:

 

[Bob Alkire]

The problem is still with the question: How does the Holy Spirit pray? HE DOESN'T, and that's why his question can not be answered because the premise itself is erroneous.

He continues to use circular reasoning by saying that Romans 8:26 does not talk about tongues, but then uses Romans 8:26 to show that the Holy Spirit prays, and then that the Spirit gave utterance in Acts 2, thus mixing together 2 entirely different contexts.

But the fact is Romans 8:26 does not say that the Spirit prays, it says He intercedes because we don't know how to pray as we ought to. Us not knowing how to pray that provokes the Spirit's intercession does not mean that a leap has been made from our praying to the Holy Spirit praying. If the question had been "How does the Holy Spirit INTERCEDE for us" or even "How does the Holy Spirit HELP US PRAY" then there would have been room for discussion, but instead, the question was phrased to add something that the Bible does not say, in order to bootstrap his conclusion for an argument in favor of his charismatic interpretation of tongues.

I too agree with this statement of yours.

 

[awaken]

WHY would He mix literal with non-literal in the same statement?!?

My answers to most of the serpent questions are in another thread!

THERE YOU GO AGAIN. You are injecting into scripture. Paul is saying that he could speak in many different languages in the church; but that we should strive for the understanding. He's NOT indicating that it's okay to speak in tongues without an interpreter outside the church; in fact, he's not encouraging anyone to speak in tongues outside the church.

Who is injecting??? Paul made it clear, in the verses I posted, what speaking in tongues is...speaking to God/praying in the spirit/ blessing with the spirit! So when he said he spoke in tongue more than all..he was referring to what he said earlier about the purpose of tongues!

But how do those relate to verse 15?

Speaking in tongues is speaking to God/praying in the spirit/ blessing with the spirit! Acts proves that they were magnifying God not preaching or witnessing to others in a foreign language.

See verse 12.


Can you?

Verse 12 is just showing how in the assembly it should be interpreted! Verse 28 tells you what to do if there is not an interpretation!

 

[awaken]

The problem is still with the question: How does the Holy Spirit pray? HE DOESN'T, and that's why his question can not be answered because the premise itself is erroneous.

He continues to use circular reasoning by saying that Romans 8:26 does not talk about tongues, but then uses Romans 8:26 to show that the Holy Spirit prays, and then that the Spirit gave utterance in Acts 2, thus mixing together 2 entirely different contexts.

But the fact is Romans 8:26 does not say that the Spirit prays, it says He intercedes because we don't know how to pray as we ought to. Us not knowing how to pray that provokes the Spirit's intercession does not mean that a leap has been made from our praying to the Holy Spirit praying. If the question had been "How does the Holy Spirit INTERCEDE for us" or even "How does the Holy Spirit HELP US PRAY" then there would have been room for discussion, but instead, the question was phrased to add something that the Bible does not say, in order to bootstrap his conclusion for an argument in favor of his charismatic interpretation of tongues.

Verse 26 is plain that the Spirit maketh the intercession! If we are not uttering a word...how does the Spirit make intercession? You are adding to what the word does not say!

My question has nothing to do with tongues! I do not know what the OP is trying to get at!
The scriptures say the He maketh intercession FOR US without us opening our mouth!

 

[Matt22:37-39]

The problem is still with the question: How does the Holy Spirit pray? HE DOESN'T, and that's why his question can not be answered because the premise itself is erroneous.

He continues to use circular reasoning by saying that Romans 8:26 does not talk about tongues, but then uses Romans 8:26 to show that the Holy Spirit prays, and then that the Spirit gave utterance in Acts 2, thus mixing together 2 entirely different contexts.

But the fact is Romans 8:26 does not say that the Spirit prays, it says He intercedes because we don't know how to pray as we ought to. Us not knowing how to pray that provokes the Spirit's intercession does not mean that a leap has been made from our praying to the Holy Spirit praying. If the question had been "How does the Holy Spirit INTERCEDE for us" or even "How does the Holy Spirit HELP US PRAY" then there would have been room for discussion, but instead, the question was phrased to add something that the Bible does not say, in order to bootstrap his conclusion for an argument in favor of his charismatic interpretation of tongues.

Agree! :thumbsup:

 

[SovereignMercy]

With groaning that cannot be uttered.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Verse 26 is plain that the Spirit maketh the intercession! If we are not uttering a word...how does the Spirit make intercession? You are adding to what the word does not say!

My question has nothing to do with tongues! I do not know what the OP is trying to get at!
The scriptures say the He maketh intercession FOR US without us opening our mouth!

Have you ever heard the term "intercessory prayer"? The two terms are not the same thing. Intercession does not mean prayer. You have however, again, altered your defense of the question with "how does the Spirit make intercession". That's not what the question was, your question and the OP was how does the Spirit pray.

Not only are you adding to the Bible, you are also adding to what others have said. And if your question had nothing to do with tongues, then why are you attempting to defend it's usage based upon the same passages which you have heretofore said support its usage?

It isn't like those reading can only see page 14. I do believe most of the people reading and opining are smart enough to go back and read the responses and know a contradiction when they see one. Perhaps you could start another thread asking 'how does the Spirit intercede for us' and then try and get an answer without injecting the additional false premise that it is related to tongues.

 

[awaken]

Answer: Romans 8:26 KJB
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.



You've changed the question.

You were asking, in essence, how does God talk to Himself. The Holy Spirit is God dwelling within us. Humans use vocal cords to orally communicate with each other. Does any man know how the three aspects of the Godhead actually communicate with each other? Your phrasing of this question was like asking how does God the Son, Christ, physically interceed with God, the Father, on our behalf?

With this last phrasing of your question you've gone right back to the premise of Romans 8:26.

The Holy Spirit relays to Son and Father, via THEIR method of communication, what we know but can't find adequate words in our oral communication vocabulary to express.

I don't know about you. I do know, for myself, I'm at a loss for words to adquately explain the depth of a reaction (for lack of a better word) to an event. Depth of sorrow over a loss. Depth of horror felt in response to utter revulsion at some acts of depraved men. Joy in seeing a beautiful sunrise. Relief from a cool breeze while in sweltering heat. The Holy Spirit can fully convey what I cannot. I don't have to speak (utter) a single solitary word for Him to do so.

Now back to the OP for a moment.

HOW DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT PRAY FOR US WHEN WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO PRAY?

During this discussion, at times it seems that Spirit (upper case) has been confused with spirit (lower case). Maybe that's just me, and I'm tired from lack of sleep.

Sometimes it seems that it would be better to keep those separate by saying the Holy Ghost instead of the Holy Spirit. Then using the word "spirit" to relay the following, as applicable to the context of the discussion.


Sometimes, today, I don't know "what to pray". The single word that comes to mind is HELP! Not help in the sense of personal material gains. No, I don't pray to win the lottery, for example. But, instead in the sense of help to cope with whatever that has come my way. Help, so that at the end of the day, my Saviour can say "well done".

In a nutshell, FAITH that when I can't find the words to utter, the Holy Ghost conveys my cry of HELP without the use of any spoken "words". Romans 8:26

I agree with this! But what most have trouble with is.. why does God speak to himself?
Why does the Holy Spirit pray something that we do not know what he is praying? If we do not know what to pray and the Holy Spirit prays for us/intercedes for us... we do not know what the prayer is, right?

 

[awaken]

Have you ever heard the term "intercessory prayer"? The two terms are not the same thing. Intercession does not mean prayer. You have however, again, altered your defense of the question with "how does the Spirit make intercession". That's not what the question was, your question and the OP was how does the Spirit pray.

I thought intercession was prayer????? When someone pleads on the behalf of someone else. Intercession is a type of prayer!

Not only are you adding to the Bible, you are also adding to what others have said. And if your question had nothing to do with tongues, then why are you attempting to defend it's usage based upon the same passages which you have heretofore said support its usage?

Where have I tried to prove it was tongues? I have said through out this thread that it COULD NOT BE UTTERED!

It isn't like those reading can only see page 14. I do believe most of the people reading and opining are smart enough to go back and read the responses and know a contradiction when they see one. Perhaps you could start another thread asking 'how does the Spirit intercede for us' and then try and get an answer without injecting the additional false premise that it is related to tongues.

I did not open the OP..I have never said it was the same question! I simply ask a question and only one person has answered it! Oldtimer is the only one that attempted to answer it without adding to it! I have yet to answer the question myself! I just asked another question!