No Dr. Ach....In love, I believe it is you....
The charismatic view on tongues has ripped Romans 8:26, Acts 2, and 1 Cor 14 out of their context to say something that Bible does not support. Perhaps later I will explain the cessation of tongues from 1 Corinthians 13, and Revelation 22, but this point needs to be understood first.
....who has ripped Romans 8:26, Acts 2, and 1 Cor 14 out of their context to say something that Bible does not support speaking in tongues.
I think we are at a stalemate, and I am more than willing to wait for God to tell us which is wrong or right.
It is the old adage - you say potato's, I say potatoes! You are free to go through your life and ministry believing as you do, just remember that those of us who do not eye-to-eye with you have the same right.
You've had your say, I've had mine. I am not changing because you may have a different, academically inclined view of tongues. Where you are depending solely upon book smarts, those of us who have the gifts of tongues are experiencing our understanding on the fact of EXPERIENCE. As far as I am concerned, all the book knowledge in the world can't take the place of personal expereince.
You said, "It isn't semantics when terms are intended to have clearly different meanings. If a gun man breaks into your house intending to kill your family, you can do one of 2 things: tell him you will pray for him, or intercede and shoot him. Intercession and prayer are not the same."
The use of the word intercede when describing your act to pull the trigger and shoot the burgler is not in line with the meaning of the word. To intercede means to:
1. (often foll by in) to come between parties or act as mediator or advocate to intercede in the strike
2. (Historical Terms) Roman history (of a tribune or other magistrate) to interpose a veto
3. To plead on another's behalf.
4. To act as mediator in a dispute
Other words used to indicate the act of "Interceeding" are: mediate, speak, plead, intervene, arbitrate, advocate, interpose
You say, "You are beginning your argument with an assumption ("when we pray in tongues") without establishing a Biblical premise for it."
Consider the following verses: Mark 16:15-18; Acts 2:1-4; Acts 10:44-47; Acts 19:6; 1 Corinthians 14:1-5; 1 Corinthians 14:14-19; 1 Corinthians 14:37-40; and ESPECIALLY Jude 20!!!
We also have - 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 ESV
"If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God."
There are five places in the New Testament where speaking in tongues is referred to explicitly:
Mark 16:17, which records the instructions of Christ to the apostles, including his description that "they will speak with new tongues" as a sign that would follow "them that believe" in him. Many scholars take Mark 16:8 as the original ending and believe the ending (Mark 16:9-20) was written later. (see Mark 16)
Acts 2, which describes an occurrence of speaking in tongues in Jerusalem at Pentecost, though with various interpretations. Specifically, "every man heard them speak in his own language" and wondered "how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"
Acts 10:46, when the household of Cornelius in Caesarea spoke in tongues, and those present compared it to the speaking in tongues that occurred at Pentecost.
Acts 19:6, when a group of approximately a dozen men spoke in tongues in Ephesus as they received the Holy Spirit while the apostle Paul laid his hands upon them.
1 Cor 12, 13, 14, where Paul discusses speaking in "various kinds of tongues" as part of his wider discussion of the gifts of the Spirit; his remarks shed some light on his own speaking in tongues as well as how the gift of speaking in tongues was to be used in the church.
Other verses by inference may be considered to refer to 'speaking in tongues', such as Isaiah 28:11, Romans 8:26 and Jude 20.
Finally, The
Apostle Paul instructed the church in Corinth about speaking in tongues in his discussion of the gifts of the Spirit in a letter to them. His purpose was to
encourage them to value the gift, but not too highly;
to practice it, but not abuse it.
Please note (Dr. Ach and others) In the letter, Paul commands church brethren,
"Do not forbid to speak in tongues" (1 Cor 14:39), while warning them that
"all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner" He further expresses his wishes that those to whom he wrote "all spoke with tongues" (1 Cor 14:5) and
claims himself to speak with tongues more than any in the church at Corinth ("I thank God I speak with tongues more than you all" 1 Cor 14:18).
At the same time he argues that not everyone can speak in tongues - something I agree with and hold to (1 Cor 12:29) and discourages simultaneous speaking in tongues directed at people rather than God, lest unbelievers should think that the assembled believers were "mad" (1 Cor 14:23, 27). Tongues, says Paul,
is speaking to God, rather than men ("in the Spirit he speaks mysteries" (1 Cor 14:2)). Paul claims that speaking in tongues edifies the person speaking (1 Cor 14:4), that it is the action of a praying speaker's spirit (as opposed to his or her understanding, see 1 Cor 14:14), and that praying in tongues serves both to bless God as well as to give thanks (1 Cor 14:16-17). However, he also expressed a preference for prophecy over speaking in tongues, unless [a speaker in tongues] interprets, so that the church may be edified(1 Cor 14:5). Paul also gave instructions that, unless there was an interpreter present, the speaker should "keep quiet in the church", and speak only to himself and to God (1 Cor 14:27-28) [from Wikipedia]
It is clear to me Dr. Ach, that we have two sides to the understanding of the gift. While I respect your views and points, and won't dispute them, I hold to a higher teaching. A teaching that comes from pay-grade much higher than what you have and hold, and my teaching comes not from books, but from the Holy Ghost, himself.
Neither of us can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what we hold to about tongues is the way it really is. You claim book knowledge, and formulation of how texts and said words in those texts come out to support your views. You are even getting many :thumbsup: from those who want badly for your view to be the right one. I say, "Good for you!"
As for me, all I can do is stand on the Scripture and how I interpret it to be read, along with actual, personal supernatural experiences that the Holy Ghost used to convince me that what I pray with is of Him.
I am certainly not going to offend the Father and especially the Holy Ghost by going to Him this late in the game and telling Him that Dr. Ach says this thing you gave me and that we've shared fluently and ovelingly over the past thirty five years is nothing more the hyped bunk! I need to go back to the stoic maner in which I once worshipped You, Father, because Dr. Ach says it is the right way, and his list of degrees and credentials are so impressive that I have no other choice.
Like the old Starkist Tuna commerical always ended their ad with, "Sorry Charlie! Only the best tuna become Starkist tuna!"
I appreciate your views and opinions, but I also would appreciate your kindly remembering that other like me, what the right to do as we see led to do.
I respect those who have a seminary background, but there was a reason I opted to avoid attending cemetery, oh sorry, seminary; because I watched many fine brothers go through higher forms of academia only to die in their enthusiastic approach to the Word of God and come out with wisdom gleaned from book knowledge and not from THE book of BOOKS, the Bible. Something can be said for too much knowledge, and the inability to understand the word of God like a child is one of those reasons.
In conclusion, you say, speaking in tongues..."strips God of His omnipotence in that He can't intercede on a believer's behalf unless the language is altered." In turn I say that YOU and your way of thinking rob the believer and the Holy Ghost of a special, supernatural approach to communicating.
So who is right? You would say, "I am!"
In turn I would acknowledge and applaud your efforts to academically shed some light on a subject that seems murky to many, but I'd have to also say that while you have a point, it isn't my cup of tea, and walk away, humming in the spirit! :wavey:
raying: