Walpole
Well-Known Member
Bingo!
Those who choose to follow Christ get eternal life (v. 28), not those dragged / compelled / forced.
You just torpedoed the OP.
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How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;
- Thread starter 1689Dave
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Bingo!
Those who choose to follow Christ get eternal life (v. 28), not those dragged / compelled / forced.
You just torpedoed the OP.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No, I did not.
To me, you just affirmed salvation by works and torpedoed the grace of God.
As I see it, you've exalted man's efforts to choose God over His choice of whom to save ( Romans 9:14-18 ).
No one truly chooses to follow Christ in and of themselves:
Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 3:10-18.
John 3:19-20.
Psalms 10:4.
One's heart has to be opened by the Lord for them to even listen to His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
Furthermore, it is given to believers, to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Otherwise, no one would believe.
The preaching of the cross is, to them that perish ( the lost ) foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
But to us which are saved, it is the power of God.
So...if you think the preaching of the cross is foolishness, it's because you are lost.
If you don't, it's because you are saved.
It's that simple.
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S0l0m0n
Member
Thanks for posting that. And as to why the thank-you:
An article on Augustine and free-will pointed out Augustine's suddenly appearing free-will; and I was perplexed, by the hows and whys of this. Until your post provided the answer, that the true free-will is provided when born again.
Here is the quote of Augustine's (Confessions, Book 9, Section 1; Chadwick translation):
'But where through so many years was my freedom of will? From what deep and hidden recess was it called out in a moment?'
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I don't have much use for Augustine's writings, but I do see that some things that he said were Scriptural.
S0l0m0n
Member
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Do you call this same God a demon still?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
If God loves someone ( Romans 9:13 ), He will save them.
But it seems to me that most of the rest of the stuff you spout, is born of a hatred of the God of the Bible.
I don't think you have any idea of what they claim.
In addition, are you going to tell us what John 8:43-47 says, line by line, in your own words, instead of trying to avoid it?
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Walpole
Well-Known Member
Exactly!
Don't forget how sadistic the God of Calvinism is as well, who actually deceives people into thinking they are elect, illumining their minds into thinking they are saved, only to pull the rug out from under them at the end.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I urge you not to speak this way, sir.
You know not what you speak of.
Satan is the great Deceiver, not the Lord.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
I urge you not to speak this way, sir.
You know not what you speak of.
Here is the progenitor...
“Nor do I even deny that God illumines their [reprobates] minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy.” (Institutes, 3.2.11)
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Let's just stick to Scripture, shall we?
I've no use for John Calvin's writings, either.
Also, this isn't about one institution versus another.
This is about whether or not you believe God's words.
Did not Freewill inhibit a whole generation of Israeli from entering in to the promised land? That it was God’s will for them to inherit?
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. - 1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. - 1 Corinthians 10:11
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Let's just stick to Scripture, shall we?
I've no use for John Calvin's writings, either.
Sure. Go here...
---> Bible: King James Version -- Simple Searches
And search for:
- Believe
- Faith
- Seek
- Follow
- Love
These are all things Christ implored man to do. Notice you will not find one single verse of Scripture where Jesus went, "Zap! Here's some belief for you...Here's some faith for you. Now let's go to heaven!"
That should keep you busy for a while. Read ALL those passages of things Christ implored man to do and the promises He made to those who do them.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Who was He imploring?
Not all mankind.
Outside of His chosen nation of Israel, He implored no one to do anything.
In fact, He commanded Israel to repent and believe the Gospel, as He commands all men to do.
It seems that your version of Jesus and the Biblical one are at odds, sir.
Very much so.
Notice who He was speaking to, and what He was saying...
"...that whosoever believeth should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Try John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:29, John 6:37-44, John 6:64-65, John 10:26, John 17:2 and many others, for starters.
They help to define the "whoseover believeth", and why they believe.
As for faith:
Notice that faith here is the evidence :
" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
It is not, nor has it ever been, the means by which a person gains God's favor.
That is why we are told that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith:
" looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It is also a fruit of the Spirit's indwelling ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), and cannot be present in someone who is not born again.
Therefore, faith does not originate with men...
It originates with God.
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Particular
Well-Known Member
In Revelation 3:20 which church is Jesus addressing? To which church is Jesus knocking on the door? Who are the people behind that door that would hear his knock?
Revelation 3:14-22 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
Have you heard about the perseverance of the saints?
WHO needs Satan when we have Calvinism?I urge you not to speak this way, sir.
You know not what you speak of.
Satan is the great Deceiver, not the Lord.
You are already born Totaly Depraved there is nothing there for Satan to ruin, nor can Satan thwart what God forces.
In fact SATAN wins the challenge of JOB.
Job 1
8The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” 9Then Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10“Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11“But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”
In Calvinism,, SATAN WINS. Worst then bribed into or bought loyalty, Job is forced into loyalty.
The whole point was Satan was saying Job likes God only because God never gives him hard time. With Calvinism its a greater joke, He only likes God because God shoved his hand up his back and forced it.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Whenever you are ready to address post # 147 we can get started, utilyan.
In addition, may I remind you that your duty as a believer is to obey the Lord ( Romans 12:1 ), and not to mock and ridicule others?
Those are works of the flesh ( Galatians 5:19-21 ), not fruits of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ).
Therefore, I encourage you to deny the flesh, and obey Him in your treatment of your fellow man.
Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ( Galatians 5:16-17 ).
Remember that He wants us to walk worthy of our calling and election ( Ephesians 4:1 ), and not to use our liberty for an occasion to the flesh ( Galatians 5:13, 1 Peter 2:16 ).
May God bless you richly, in all things.
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Everyone hears who has ears.
Matthew 7
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
The fool doesn't put it into practice. The fool says there is no God.
Dave I not against only those elect comprehend God. Everyone in heaven is elect with God given understanding.
The only difference between us is you jumped the gun and judge wrongly.
I would not count you as having correct understanding in the least. You totally do not hear him.
1 Corinthians 4
3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.
When Paul preaches to pagans who end up rejecting him:
Acts 17
27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’
Calvinist PAUL cannot make the claim that anyone is their children.
You are throwing out a unfounded ACCUSATION.
I can quote to a stranger exactly like Paul says, God is not far from you, God wants you to seek him. You are a child of God and God loves you.
Calvinist cannot do that. And if left only using scripture you could never convey the evil unbiblical teachings of TULIP.
Only God's sheep hear his voice.......When will YOU LISTEN? Look how Jesus preaches, Look how Paul preaches, Look how Peter preaches, You do not sound anything like that.
You could not walk up to a bunch of pagans and declare YOU ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD just like your teachings say.
You could not tell a stranger that GOD wants that person to SEEK HIM.
NIETHER WOULD A PHARISEE. And he sure the heck thinks he is CHOSEN and ELECT.
You have the exact same ideology just a different brand. If I take off the pharisee name tag off, slap a christian, take the yaweh name tag and slap a Jesus name tag. That is exactly who you are. The same snobby perspective.
Tell me one thing that is different. I bet you can't.
S0l0m0n
Member
Still nothing on this? Nothing at all?:
'shoved his hand up his back'.
Let me think about that.
'shoved his hand up his back'.
Well, good sir, I'll tell you this much; that if an unsaved person said the very same thing you said, you'd probably call him an unsaved devil in anger.
And what then does that make you, who implied such a filthy, degenerate idea and claims to fear God? There is no fear of God in you.
This is the fruit of the naturally rebellious free-will.
'shoved his hand up his back'.
Let me think about that.
'shoved his hand up his back'.
Well, good sir, I'll tell you this much; that if an unsaved person said the very same thing you said, you'd probably call him an unsaved devil in anger.
And what then does that make you, who implied such a filthy, degenerate idea and claims to fear God? There is no fear of God in you.
This is the fruit of the naturally rebellious free-will.
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