How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;

[Scott Downey]

That is not what that verse says. You added words to it.....why,?

Peter is speaking to the beloved who will be saved, he is not speaking to the wicked that wont be saved.

The WORDS are implied in the context of the verse. Otherwise your just going to read all your verses out of context.
Peter is speaking to all of them that are elect according to God's foreknowledge, just as He says when He begins his first letter in 1 Peter. So all the following beloveds are these who are God's foreknown elect, they are not the wicked of the world. And let me ask you, WHY would God wait patiently with longsuffering for the wicked to repent when He knows they never will.

If you sit there and put a verse through the ringer demanding every word must exist in that verse to convey a certain understanding without reading it in context, then you can make up all sorts of meanings that suit what your itching ears want to her. Peter mentions the wicked first, how God's promise is to destroy them, then Peter mentions for the foreknown elect their certain salvation. God waits with longsuffering for all of them to repent because He will not allow any of them to be lost.

 

[robycop3]

To whom was John writing? Was he telling this to pagans or to people who were already believers?

Evidently, by the context, he was writing to area non-believers, but it ended up being for ALL non-believers, as God made it Scripture, & Scripture is for everyone.

Will those whom the Father has not given him believe? If so, show me where a person God had not chosen came to faith.

EASY !

MYSELF !

I've written that a number of times in this thread.

 

[Scott Downey]

Evidently, by the context, he was writing to area non-believers, but it ended up being for ALL non-believers, as God made it Scripture, & Scripture is for everyone.



EASY !

MYSELF !

I've written that a number of times in this thread.

No one can honestly read 1st or 2nd Peter and claim these scriptures are written to all men, such as unbelievers. All the church letters from Apostles are written to churches which implies people who will be saved are the intended recipients of the letters, not a single one is written to the wicked unbelieving scoffers of the world.

2 Peter 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

Greeting the Faithful

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Fruitful Growth in the Faith
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Peter’s Approaching Death
12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this [f]tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.

15 Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

 

[robycop3]

Peter is speaking to the beloved who will be saved, he is not speaking to the wicked that wont be saved.

The WORDS are implied in the context of the verse. Otherwise your just going to read all your verses out of context.
Peter is speaking to all of them that are elect according to God's foreknowledge, just as He says when He begins his first letter in 1 Peter. So all the following beloveds are these who are God's foreknown elect, they are not the wicked of the world. And let me ask you, WHY would God wait patiently with longsuffering for the wicked to repent when He knows they never will.

If you sit there and put a verse through the ringer demanding every word must exist in that verse to convey a certain understanding without reading it in context, then you can make up all sorts of meanings that suit what your itching ears want to her. Peter mentions the wicked first, how God's promise is to destroy them, then Peter mentions for the foreknown elect their certain salvation. God waits with longsuffering for all of them to repent because He will not allow any of them to be lost.

If that were true, we wouldn't need Bibles, churches, or worship at all. God wants people who serve Him of their own free will, not robots, which He coulda easily created.

Jesus said, in Matt. 23:37, "“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

So, here we see more of man's free will.

Now, I'll be the first to admit God pre-selected SOME for special service to Him, such as Moses, Jeremiah, Mary & Joseph, & the apostles, including Paul. But most of us had to decide of our own free will to come to Jesus.

 

[robycop3]

No one can honestly read 1st or 2nd Peter and claim these scriptures are written to all men, such as unbelievers. All the church letters from Apostles are written to churches which implies people who will be saved are the intended recipients of the letters, not a single one is written to the wicked unbelieving scoffers of the world.

2 Peter 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting the Faithful
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Fruitful Growth in the Faith
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control [d]perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither [e]barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Peter’s Approaching Death
12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this [f]tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.

15 Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

Actually, they ended up being for ALL, as God made them Scripture, & Scripture is for everyone.

 

[Scott Downey]

Actually, they ended up being for ALL, as God made them Scripture, & Scripture is for everyone.

No, go and look at the header of each letter, such as from Paul. They are all written to the saints in Christ.
Paul, Peter, John did not write their letters to the unbelieving world, they are only for the edification of the church. They never intended unbelievers to read any of what they wrote down. They are all instructions for the church.

 

[Walpole]

I think these images illustrate the difference between the God of Calvinism and the God of Christianity.


Calvinism:

Christianity:

 

[Scott Downey]

The world has no true interest in scripture as ultimate truth, otherwise they would believe what is written.
No one can say scripture here is for the world, not when read in context. The context is for those who have faith, called to be saints. These letters are not for the world as they speak about salvation of God's people through Christ. And the world hates Christ and God. But the world does love false christs and false gods.

Romans 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who [a]was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Desire to Visit Rome
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

 

[Particular]

Sir, he didn't drag me anywhere til I came to Him of my own free will. Of all the people on earth, only I know how I felt during those times. Only I know what actually motivated me to come to Jesus. Sorry, but no one else can tell me how I felt or what I believed.

So you call God a liar?

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The Greek word translated draw in English means "to forcibly drag."
Strong's Greek: 1670. ἑλκύω (helkó) -- to drag

 

[utilyan]

This scripture still does not support your claim. I do not disagree that Paul was chosen but so are most Jews. People forget that Paul was already a believer in God and on the road to Damascus. He met Christ there and The way Paul met Christ certainly let him know right away that what he was doing was wrong and He changed his own will in that moment. Paul was not force-ably saved against his will. Your imagination would really have to work hard to even think so.
MB

If Calvinism was true......why would Jesus put up a light show at all? Whats the point in blinding Paul?

Why God not just snap a finger and be done with? since he has to personally mind wipe you anyway.

Calvinism is just plain insincere and dishonest. Everyone is a fake rock bottom convert. I go see this one fellah testimony oh he was a devil worshiper....oh please...

Where is the guy who out of the blue gets mind-wiped by God? And personally gets the tulip downloaded to his brain?

It never happens. The Alcoholic, druggie......ok sure that doesn't mean 99% of converts are ex military alcoholics.

Where is the guy with the boring story? He's not a drug dealer, not a devil worshiper, hasn't been a drunk who beats his wife?

Come on none of you even got a cradle Calvinist? Or do they all beat it when they understand what they are taught?

I see a cowardice. A group of folks who can't think for themselves. Peer pressure, Conformity driven. Just the type non questioning folk bad leadership needs. They lie to themselves so much they believe it now.

Plenty here if they didn't know the scripture would have been easily bullied by the typical sanctimonious attack regimen to their faith

 

[MB]

You sure about that? You sure it didn't happen when God spoke to Saul?
By the way, who acted first on that road to Damascus, was it Saul or God?

It was Jesus by appearing in a vision

Sir, he didn't drag me anywhere til I came to Him of my own free will. Of all the people on earth, only I know how I felt during those times. Only I know what actually motivated me to come to Jesus. Sorry, but no one else can tell me how I felt or what I believed.

Particular is a mystic didn't you know that. I'll bet he wears a turbin LOL

 

[MB]

If Calvinism was true......why would Jesus put up a light show at all? Whats the point in blinding Paul?

Why God not just snap a finger and be done with? since he has to personally mind wipe you anyway.

Calvinism is just plain insincere and dishonest. Everyone is a fake rock bottom convert. I go see this one fellah testimony oh he was a devil worshiper....oh please...

Where is the guy who out of the blue gets mind-wiped by God? And personally gets the tulip downloaded to his brain?

It never happens. The Alcoholic, druggie......ok sure that doesn't mean 99% of converts are ex military alcoholics.

Where is the guy with the boring story? He's not a drug dealer, not a devil worshiper, hasn't been a drunk who beats his wife?

Come on none of you even got a cradle Calvinist? Or do they all beat it when they understand what they are taught?

I see a cowardice. A group of folks who can't think for themselves. Peer pressure, Conformity driven. Just the type non questioning folk bad leadership needs. They lie to themselves so much they believe it now.

He would have to perform a feat of magic this is true. Calvinist must think Christ runs around with a harry potter wan. So funny they shouldn't be allowed to watch TV.
MB

 

[MB]

The world has no true interest in scripture as ultimate truth, otherwise they would believe what is written.
No one can say scripture here is for the world, not when read in context. The context is for those who have faith, called to be saints. These letters are not for the world as they speak about salvation of God's people through Christ. And the world hates Christ and God. But the world does love false christs and false gods.

Romans 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who [a]was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Desire to Visit Rome
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

When you say world do you mean just one or maybe two or everybody as in Jn 3:16?
MB

 

[utilyan]

The world has no true interest in scripture as ultimate truth, otherwise they would believe what is written.
No one can say scripture here is for the world, not when read in context. The context is for those who have faith, called to be saints. These letters are not for the world as they speak about salvation of God's people through Christ. And the world hates Christ and God. But the world does love false christs and false gods.

Romans 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who [a]was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Desire to Visit Rome
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

No its just the number 1 selling book of all time because its so uninteresting.

OR.

Just because it wasn't important to rock-bottom converts until they reach rock bottom, thus the rock bottom convert expects everyone else to be the exact same way, never caring and hating God. The vanity is still intact, False humility worst pride of all, requires to drag the rest of society to prove everyone is just as bad as they are.

 

[MB]

No its just the number 1 selling book of all time because its so uninteresting.

OR.

Just because it wasn't important to rock-bottom converts until they reach rock bottom, thus the rock bottom convert expects everyone else to be the exact same way, never caring and hating God. The vanity is still intact, False humility worst pride of all, requires to drag the rest of society to prove everyone is just as bad as they are.

Amen
MB

 

[Dave G]

That is not what that verse says. You added words to it.....why,?

The verse is in context with the verses before it.

Because he wants to push calvinism.

Because there's more to Scripture than what the verse immediately says.

As @Revmitchell is fond of saying, there's context to be considered.

Once again, Jesus said "ANYONE". He didn't say "any Laodiceans".

The context of the "any man" here is not "all men"...
It is the "any man" in the church being addressed:

" And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." ( Revelation 3:14-22 ).

Who is being spoken to here?
Hint:

Not unbelievers.
In addition, in light of Romans 3:10-18, who is going to open the door in and of themselves?

Those that are born of God.

 

[Dave G]

I think these images illustrate the difference between the God of Calvinism and the God of Christianity.

Who is that knocking at the door?

Not the Lord Jesus.
That is a picture of what many want Him to be like, Walpole.

The Bible paints a very different picture, sir.
When He comes back, no one will want to see Him except His sheep.
He will come and take vengeance in flaming fire:

" In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8 ).

It will not be a pretty sight.

 

[Scott Downey]

If Calvinism was true......why would Jesus put up a light show at all? Whats the point in blinding Paul?

Why God not just snap a finger and be done with? since he has to personally mind wipe you anyway.

Calvinism is just plain insincere and dishonest. Everyone is a fake rock bottom convert. I go see this one fellah testimony oh he was a devil worshiper....oh please...

Where is the guy who out of the blue gets mind-wiped by God? And personally gets the tulip downloaded to his brain?

It never happens. The Alcoholic, druggie......ok sure that doesn't mean 99% of converts are ex military alcoholics.

Where is the guy with the boring story? He's not a drug dealer, not a devil worshiper, hasn't been a drunk who beats his wife?

Come on none of you even got a cradle Calvinist? Or do they all beat it when they understand what they are taught?

I see a cowardice. A group of folks who can't think for themselves. Peer pressure, Conformity driven. Just the type non questioning folk bad leadership needs. They lie to themselves so much they believe it now.

Plenty here if they didn't know the scripture would have been easily bullied by the typical sanctimonious attack regimen to their faith

Because God is love and salvation is about relationships in the family of God. Adoption, children are words that describe the relationship. People who God adopts as His children, He shows to them His kindness, God does not treat them like a machine, the Holy Spirit teaches those He brings to Christ.
God is also glorious and a glorious light show is what He likes.

 

[InTheLight]

No, go and look at the header of each letter, such as from Paul. They are all written to the saints in Christ.
Paul, Peter, John did not write their letters to the unbelieving world, they are only for the edification of the church. They never intended unbelievers to read any of what they wrote down. They are all instructions for the church.

Except for 1 Cor 2:14, naturally.

 

[Dave G]

Actually, they ended up being for ALL, as God made them Scripture, & Scripture is for everyone.

Scripture is not for everyone, as everyone does not receive His words ( John 8:47 ).
It is for the comfort of the believer :

" For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." ( Romans 15:4 ).

" All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ).

The Bible is not written to those who will never be saved.
It is written to God's elect.