How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;

[Revmitchell]

I have started to feel that way about all threads that either try to hide their agenda or are blatantly trying to pick a fight. I just take the by-pass road on those sort of threads.

we can call them out with

Do you believe Luther's quote in the post?

You have still not dealt with what I said.

 

[1689Dave]

we can call them out with


You have still not dealt with what I said.

What are you referring too?

 

[rockytopva]

I plan on Photoshopping this cartoon and naming it, "An Arminian Misses Heaven" And... Instead of story book problems put the 110 commentaries of John Calvin in the library.

 

[Aaron]

Free will also requires the contradiction of straightforward maxims put forth by Christ. "An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit."

The noncalvinists says they can and must. Just as they, and some ill-informed calvinists will say that Adam had free will, but he didn't. "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit."

It was only after he was corrupted that he sinned, and he could do no other.

 

[InTheLight]

I plan on Photoshopping this cartoon and naming it, "An Arminian Misses Heaven" And... Instead of story book problems put the 110 commentaries of John Calvin in the library.

Sounds like a very Christ-like thing to do. Tis the season, I guess...

 

[rockytopva]

it is the theologians job to take...

and turned it into this:

But....

The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. - James 3:17

 

[Reformed]

Sounds like a very Christ-like thing to do. Tis the season, I guess...

This sort of tripe is resident on both sides, is it not? The fact that they are proud of it is most disheartening.

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[Revmitchell]

This sort of tripe is resident on both sides, is it not? The fact that they are proud of it is most disheartening.

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Are both sides doing it in thus thread?

 

[Reformed]

Are both sides doing it in thus thread?

I assumed Rocktop is not a Calvinist. Am I wrong?

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[Revmitchell]

I assumed Rocktop is not a Calvinist. Am I wrong?

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Yea i missed him.

 

[Van]

I see we are on page 3 of this nonsensical thread. Does God compel the lost to sin? Either you believe God is the author of sin, or you believe in partial free will.

Stand by for fabrications of deflection.

 

[Particular]

I see we are on page 3 of this nonsensical thread. Does God compel the lost to sin? Either you believe God is the author of sin, or you believe in partial free will.

Stand by for fabrications of deflection.

What is in the nature of man?
Certainly God did not compel Adam to disobey. Adam did so by his own volition.
In essence, Adam and Eve fell down the well and no manner of free will ever brought them out of the well.
All their offspring were born and raised in bottom of the well. No manner of free will gets them out.
The only means of salvation from the well is to be extracted from the well by someone who will free them. When God chooses to free a person, no manner of fighting against God will stop God from freeing that person. Like the cat that is stuck, but fights against his savior, so man may fight against God. But, God will not leave that man whom he has chosen. He will save that man.

There is no free will when discussing salvation. A man cannot save himself and he cannot stop God from choosing him and saving him, no matter how much he fights at the bit.

 

[utilyan]

What is in the nature of man?
Certainly God did not compel Adam to disobey. Adam did so by his own volition.
In essence, Adam and Eve fell down the well and no manner of free will ever brought them out of the well.
All their offspring were born and raised in bottom of the well. No manner of free will gets them out.
The only means of salvation from the well is to be extracted from the well by someone who will free them. When God chooses to free a person, no manner of fighting against God will stop God from freeing that person. Like the cat that is stuck, but fights against his savior, so man may fight against God. But, God will not leave that man whom he has chosen. He will save that man.

There is no free will when discussing salvation. A man cannot save himself and he cannot stop God from choosing him and saving him, no matter how much he fights at the bit.

"What is in the nature of man?"
Jesus Christ is nature of man. Does Jesus have FREE WILL or is he not human?

"A man cannot save himself and he cannot stop God from choosing him and saving him, no matter how much he fights at the bit."

A Man cannot doom himself for that matter, since a man did not create himself. He can't breathe, he cannot choose to sin, he cannot even exist. His capacity to breathe is God given. His very existence is God given. His free will is God given.

You can deliver the entire philosophy of Total Depravity in one sentence, And in the thousands of verses of scripture it never teaches Man lost his capacity to do what is right.

Everyone who God does not want to have free will don't , and don't exist.

Common sense if there absolutely no free will then when you argue you are only arguing with God, Greater common sense is God arguing with God.

If I was forged as particular musical note and in detailed control where I am arranged even to the point to where there is no choice in the matter, the note remains, I am that I am.

There is a problem with the idea God is playing solitaire, that is the trinity.

 

[Particular]

"What is in the nature of man?"
Jesus Christ is nature of man. Does Jesus have FREE WILL or is he not human?

"A man cannot save himself and he cannot stop God from choosing him and saving him, no matter how much he fights at the bit."

A Man cannot doom himself for that matter, since a man did not create himself. He can't breathe, he cannot choose to sin, he cannot even exist. His capacity to breathe is God given. His very existence is God given. His free will is God given.

You can deliver the entire philosophy of Total Depravity in one sentence, And in the thousands of verses of scripture it never teaches Man lost his capacity to do what is right.

Everyone who God does not want to have free will don't , and don't exist.

Common sense if there absolutely no free will then when you argue you are only arguing with God, Greater common sense is God arguing with God.

If I was forged as particular musical note and in detailed control where I am arranged even to the point to where there is no choice in the matter, the note remains, I am that I am.

There is a problem with the idea God is playing solitaire, that is the trinity.

Wait, what!?
Jesus is the nature of man?
That would make Jesus a sinful wretch.

Jesus was born as the Son of Man, meaning he is the 2nd Adam. He has nothing to do with the nature of the 1st Adam and his offspring.

All men, born of the 1st Adam are doomed from the start. They are born in a state where they immediately need saving.

No man can save himself, therefore his will has no capacity to be free. He is enslaved by his own sin.

Thanks for sharing utilyan, it becomes more clear that you do not hold to an orthodox understanding of Christian faith.

 

[utilyan]

Wait, what!?
Jesus is the nature of man?
That would make Jesus a sinful wretch.

Jesus was born as the Son of Man, meaning he is the 2nd Adam. He has nothing to do with the nature of the 1st Adam and his offspring.

All men, born of the 1st Adam are doomed from the start. They are born in a state where they immediately need saving.

No man can save himself, therefore his will has no capacity to be free. He is enslaved by his own sin.

Thanks for sharing utilyan, it becomes more clear that you do not hold to an orthodox understanding of Christian faith.

Jesus Christ is the perfect standard of a Man. We bear the image of God.

1 Corinthians 15
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15
45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.


Does Jesus have free will?

 

[percho]

Free will means all people have partial salvation. And all they must do is provide what’s needed to complete it. So different groups fill in the blanks with different levels of obedience to complete the task. They are half saved having free will. And fully saved by choosing to obey.

But it always results in people trusting in themselves for salvation. God only opening heaven’s doors to those who complete the task.

But this destroys faith in Christ as savior. Free will is a walk by sight trust in yourself for salvation based on rules you fulfill. So trust is always in self who fulfills them.

But without free will, people have to look for a power beyond themselves to save. Only when they come to the end of themselves with nothing more they can do, will Christ become their only focus of faith.

As Martin Luther said; "First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only.”

He continues; “For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and does not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved." Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

So in the end people have sight faith, trusting in tangible items keen to the senses. But only few have faith sight where they trust in Christ alone to save them.

I agree however let be ask.

Does it destroy, faith in Christ, as savior OR does it, as the genitive tense states, destroy the faith of Christ, as savior?

If, which I believe to be true, we are saved by, the faith of Christ, then what we believe originating from within our minds has zero to do with our salvation.

God through the work of the Spirit of Truth in us translate us from unbelief unto belief. We are then in Christ and therefore of the faith of Abraham, which is the seed of Abraham, as one, Christ. The seed in which all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.

 

[percho]

Jesus Christ is the perfect standard of a Man. We bear the image of God.

1 Corinthians 15
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15
45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.


Does Jesus have free will?

I find it very interesting as to why God made man in his own image, yet made him a little lower than the angels. Who was God out to get? In whose image was the Son of Man going to come?

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

All was very good yet at that very moment I believe Romans 8:20 YLT was true and in effect.

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:1-3

Did a little lower than the angels have any thing to do with the vanity God subjected his creation ?

Yes Jesus had free will and he exercised it when he said, "Not my will but thine be done," and he free willingly poured out his soul unto death.

 

[Van]

What is in the nature of man?
Certainly God did not compel Adam to disobey. Adam did so by his own volition.
In essence, Adam and Eve fell down the well and no manner of free will ever brought them out of the well.
All their offspring were born and raised in bottom of the well. No manner of free will gets them out.
The only means of salvation from the well is to be extracted from the well by someone who will free them. When God chooses to free a person, no manner of fighting against God will stop God from freeing that person. Like the cat that is stuck, but fights against his savior, so man may fight against God. But, God will not leave that man whom he has chosen. He will save that man.

There is no free will when discussing salvation. A man cannot save himself and he cannot stop God from choosing him and saving him, no matter how much he fights at the bit.

Did anyone see the poster say God is the author of sin, or that the lost have partial free will? Neither did I.
BTW, who made the "well." God did. So the effort to say God did not cause the consequences of Adam's sin is futile.

 

[percho]

I'm off to bed.

 

[1689Dave]

I agree however let be ask.

Does it destroy, faith in Christ, as savior OR does it, as the genitive tense states, destroy the faith of Christ, as savior?

If, which I believe to be true, we are saved by, the faith of Christ, then what we believe originating from within our minds has zero to do with our salvation.

God through the work of the Spirit of Truth in us translate us from unbelief unto belief. We are then in Christ and therefore of the faith of Abraham, which is the seed of Abraham, as one, Christ. The seed in which all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.

People trust in their faith to save them. True faith focuses on Christ to save them.