How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;

[utilyan]

Let's just stick to Scripture, shall we?
I've no use for John Calvin's writings, either.

Also, this isn't about one institution versus another.
This is about whether or not you believe God's words.

Lets do this then. No butchering the word of God with outside philosophical trash. No having to re-explain the word of God as if he is some idiot author.


1 Timothy 2

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Can I get a AMEN?

 

[Dave G]

Lets do this then. No butchering the word of God with outside philosophical trash. No having to re-explain the word of God as if he is some idiot author.

Let's do this then...

No butchering the word of God with outside philosophical trash, and no having to re-explain the word of God as if you don't know what every word says.
Lay it all out on the table for everyone here to see.

Address post # 147.
The entire passage of John 8:43-47, line by line, in your own words, sir.

As someone who knows the Scripture, this should afford no trouble to you, utilyan.
After all, you seem to bank your understanding of the subject matter on what you confidently see in His word.
Can I get an amen?

As for your comments about "Calvinists" and your characterization of God...
Personally, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any genuine fear of Him anywhere in your body.
But I may yet be proven wrong.



With that said, let's get on with it...
After you sir.

 

[utilyan]

Still nothing on this? Nothing at all?:





'shoved his hand up his back'.

Let me think about that.

'shoved his hand up his back'.

Well, good sir, I'll tell you this much; that if an unsaved person said the very same thing you said, you'd probably call him an unsaved devil in anger.

And what then does that make you, who implied such a filthy, degenerate idea and claims to fear God? There is no fear of God in you.

This is the fruit of the naturally rebellious free-will.

"Well, good sir, I'll tell you this much; that if an unsaved person said the very same thing you said, you'd probably call him an unsaved devil in anger."

Calvinism proclaims this all the time. I'm haven't called you an unsaved devil have I?


Awe of God should not be confused with fear.

1 John 4
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

As you admit.....you are not perfected in love. Whatever you fear you hate.


"This is the fruit of the naturally rebellious free-will"

Well if it exists even for the worst....indeed it exists. But if the claim is there is no free will, you are not arguing with me but God.


I couldn't insult God as much as you portray him to be if I TRIED!

I can call millions of things worst then God, I bet you can't name one person or thing worst then your idea of God.

If your idea of God was GODZILLA some dumb roaming lizard, it would be a total upgrade.

 

[rockytopva]

I am glad there are others here, besides me, who does not like the Calvin guy. As well as Martin Luther, I would have recommended the whole generation not to become worse people than the Catholic before them.

 

[utilyan]

Let's do this then...

Address post # 147.
The entire passage of John 8:43-47, line by line, in your own words, sir.

Can I get an amen?
As someone who knows the Scripture, this should afford no trouble to you, utilyan.
After all, you seem to bank your understanding of the subject matter on what you see in the Scriptures, so this should present no problem for you, should it?

Shall I start first, or are you going to do the honors?

After that, you can explain how, as a believer in Jesus Christ, you have the audacity to speak as if God is not taking note of your every word.
Personally, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any genuine fear of Him anywhere in your body.

But you may yet prove me wrong, sir.
I can only hope, for your sake, that you realize what and Who you are speaking about.

With that said, let's get on with it.

"Personally, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any genuine fear of Him anywhere in your body."

Oh I've been in terror of the absolute joy of God. When you fall in love the knees might buckle, you go may even go clumsy. There is a great awe. You pick up loving for same reason he does.

There is no fear in Love. Faith in God means you have confidence and trust God. If I am sizing up God on what harm he could bring that is not trusting God. If your eyes are on consequence and reward, those idols have no place.

You need to let go of this selfish view about what is in it for me.

If anyone has complete faith and trust in God, you are going to run into the most calm and relaxed person of all. I guarantee they are absolutely fearless.


If you can name one difference between Love and God then you still have plenty to learn about both.

 

[Dave G]

"Personally, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any genuine fear of Him anywhere in your body."

Oh I've been in terror of the absolute joy of God. When you fall in love the knees might buckle, you go may even go clumsy. There is a great awe. You pick up loving for same reason he does.

But you have no fear of God, utilyan...
No respect for His power and holiness.

That is what I see.

You need to let go of this selfish view about what is in it for me.

I also see that you need to let go of insulting others, and enjoying it.

I see you treating people who do not agree with you, not with trying to correct them with God's word out of love and genuine concern, but out of ridicule and mocking...
That is what your posts are mostly composed of, from my point of view.
It's "conduct unbecoming" one of Christ's sheep, sir.

We don't do the things that the world enjoys doing.

If you can name one difference between Love and God then you still have plenty to learn about both.

I doubt you've ever been impressed with His power and absolute hatred of sin and sinners, Utilyan.
That is the terror of the Lord.

Your idea of God appears to be some fuzzy-wuzzy God-loves-everyone god that is not willing to show wrath, and to make His power known.
God's word says otherwise.

There is a day coming when He shall judge the quick ( those He has made alive ) and the dead ( those He has not ).
It will be worse than any of us think...
Far worse than you seem to think.

Believe his word, sir,
All of it.

Not just the parts about God loving someone, which you seem to stretch over the entirety of everything He has to say.
He is also willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known ( Romans 1:18, Romans 9:22 ).

That is why there is a Hell beneath us,
and the reason that He sent His Son to die and be raised again for those that are His.

 

[utilyan]

But you have no fear of God, utilyan...
No respect for His power and holiness.

That is what I see.

I also see that you need to let go of insulting others, and enjoying it.
It's "conduct unbecoming" one of Christ's sheep, sir.

We don't do the things that the world enjoys doing.

I doubt you've ever been impressed with His power and absolute hatred of sin and sinners, Utilyan.
That is the terror of the Lord.

Your idea of God appears to be some fuzzy-wuzzy God-loves-everyone god that is not willing to show wrath, and to make His power known.
God's word says otherwise.

There is a day coming when He shall judge the quick ( those He has made alive ) and the dead ( those He has not ).
It will be worse than any of us think...
Far worse than you seem to think.

Believe his word, sir,
All of it.

Not just the parts about God loving someone, which you seem to stretch over the entirety of everything He has to say.
He is also willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known ( Romans 1:18, Romans 9:22 ).

That is why there is a Hell beneath us,
and the reason that He sent His Son to die and be raised again for those that are His.

"I doubt you've ever been impressed with His power and absolute hatred of sin and sinners, Utilyan.
That is the terror of the Lord."

I love God so I don't have time to invest hate on anything.

1 John 4

8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Your god does not know GOD, For God is Love.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 3:05 AM Pacific.

 

[utilyan]

The greatest obstacle folks are going to run into is the person who is not selfish. The person who loves everyone. The one who's sense of reward is not based on himself being selfishly pampered. But the one who has a direct sense of reward based on how you treat others around him. When he sees someone going from Evil to Good THAT is his reward. Same goes for his sense of punishment. You can torture this guy all day long he's more worried about what is going to happen to you, your well being, your happiness.

There is two houses. One with joyful people you can hear the singing and cheering, The other is a house on fire with people screaming. The saint is always going to go towards the fire, towards wherever suffering is. He is only satisfied when everyone else is okay, He will not rest until those he loves are safe, there in lies the problem, he loves everyone. From the worst of sinners to the best of us.

See if this guy gets heaven the only heaven he knows is mercy and love for the rest. You want to put this guy in hell just put any soul in hell, doesn't matter who. In spirit he will already be with the one suffering. Just like a parent cries if a doctor cause pain to infant child. This guy's pain is going to be greater. He isn't selfish, he's not going to be apathetic and be like "oh well at least I get a "prize", like some folks who would throw their own mother under the bus for "salvation".

 

[Scott Downey]

1 John 2

9The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

Child of Satan Accuses others are Child of Satan on no grounds. He can't even claim another is a child of God.

1 john 3

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


Calvinist Jesus can lay out his entire theology in one line:

If God likes you then you will be saved and if God hates you then you will be damned.

And he is absolutely done, nothing more need be said, nor any bickering or debate.

It is true that God does not love everyone. God shows mercy and compassion only to some people.
In truth the reason anyone is born of God, is because God loved them with a great love and not so the others. Both saved and unsaved were following after the devil and fulfilling their fleshly lusts at the time, so there was nothing lovely about either one.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Ephesians 2 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Saved people though were not the 'others', they were greatly loved by God and so then God saved them only, leaving the 'others' to remain slaves of sin, Satan, and to perish in their sins in hell fire.

The truth is God chooses who can and will approach Him and salvation depends on God choosing to be merciful to someone, and not on what they do or how they live their life.

 

[robycop3]

No, go and look at the header of each letter, such as from Paul. They are all written to the saints in Christ.
Paul, Peter, John did not write their letters to the unbelieving world, they are only for the edification of the church. They never intended unbelievers to read any of what they wrote down. They are all instructions for the church.

But GOD made them become for everyone, as He made them Scripture, which is for everyone.

 

[Scott Downey]

God loved us which is why we are called the children of God, and not the world are called the children of God, they are the children of the devil.

That love God bestowed, as in given unto us, and not to the world, who are the children of Satan.

The love God manifested TOWARD US, and not the world, and the result is that we live to Him and the 'others' die and are dead in their sins.

We did not love God, God loved us first and sent His Son to be our savior and loved us so that we would have all of our sins forgiven, but the world of the children of Satan experience God's wrath, and have no forgiveness of their sins. They do not have the atonement of their sins. Christ is not their atoning sacrifice.

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Apostle John was not writing to unsaved men, not writing to the world, John was writing to the saved that God loved with a great love, which is why they are saved. It is only to the saved that the Son of God has come and given an understanding to know God and Christ.

1 John 5
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[robycop3]

So you call God a liar?

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The Greek word translated draw in English means "to forcibly drag."
Strong's Greek: 1670. ἑλκύω (helkó) -- to drag

So, who does God NOT call & draw? Virtually everyone in the "civilized" world has heard the Gospel. But many have chosen to believe a "better gospel", such as Islam, the seed choked out by tares".. Others are interested for awhile, but soon lose interest, I. E. "the seed which falls on rocky ground". Others are as I once was, dismissing it as a "fairy tale" & imagination. So, most are without excuse if they fail to heed the Gospel, as they've heard it. I chose on my own to heed it.

 

[robycop3]

Scripture is not for everyone, as everyone does not receive His words ( John 8:47 ).
It is for the comfort of the believer :

" For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." ( Romans 15:4 ).

" All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ).

The Bible is not written to those who will never be saved.
It is written to God's elect.

So, is there any other word of God?

The very same Scripture applies to ALL people everywhere. He did NOT make one set of Scriptures for Jews, another for Baptists, another for Moslems, another for Bhuddists, etc. If a Jew, Baptist, Moslem, Bhuddist, or anyone else doesn't repent of sin & come to Jesus, he/she's lost, simple as THAT. There's ONE Bible for ALL people of ALL nations & peoples. That ONE Bible is translated from its original languages in which God gave it to men into over 2400 different languages today, & is kept updated in the commonest world languages today.

But it's still the same one-and-only Bible, meant for EVERYONE, containing the ONE-AND-ONLY way for salvation.

 

[robycop3]

God loved us which is why we are called the children of God, and not the world are called the children of God, they are the children of the devil.

That love God bestowed, as in given unto us, and not to the world, who are the children of Satan.

The love God manifested TOWARD US, and not the world, and the result is that we live to Him and the 'others' die and are dead in their sins.

We did not love God, God loved us first and sent His Son to be our savior and loved us so that we would have all of our sins forgiven, but the world of the children of Satan experience God's wrath, and have no forgiveness of their sins. They do not have the atonement of their sins. Christ is not their atoning sacrifice.

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Apostle John was not writing to unsaved men, not writing to the world, John was writing to the saved that God loved with a great love, which is why they are saved. It is only to the saved that the Son of God has come and given an understanding to know God and Christ.

1 John 5
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

There is but ONE way for salvation for EVERYONE. God did NOT make anyone for the purpose of populating the lake of fire, which He said was intended for the devil & his angels.

Know of anyone He has ever turned down if they really sought Him ?

 

[robycop3]

The greatest obstacle folks are going to run into is the person who is not selfish. The person who loves everyone. The one who's sense of reward is not based on himself being selfishly pampered. But the one who has a direct sense of reward based on how you treat others around him. When he sees someone going from Evil to Good THAT is his reward. Same goes for his sense of punishment. You can torture this guy all day long he's more worried about what is going to happen to you, your well being, your happiness.

There is two houses. One with joyful people you can hear the singing and cheering, The other is a house on fire with people screaming. The saint is always going to go towards the fire, towards wherever suffering is. He is only satisfied when everyone else is okay, He will not rest until those he loves are safe, there in lies the problem, he loves everyone. From the worst of sinners to the best of us.

See if this guy gets heaven the only heaven he knows is mercy and love for the rest. You want to put this guy in hell just put any soul in hell, doesn't matter who. In spirit he will already be with the one suffering. Just like a parent cries if a doctor cause pain to infant child. This guy's pain is going to be greater. He isn't selfish, he's not going to be apathetic and be like "oh well at least I get a "prize", like some folks who would throw their own mother under the bus for "salvation".

Mitsuo Fuchida, the man who led the Pearl Harbor attack, was talking to some former Japanese POWs in 1050. They especially were enamored with a young woman, Peggy Covell, who'd treated them with great kindness while they were POWs in the Philippines. They asked her why she, an American, was being so good to them, & she replied, "Because some Japanese soldiers murdered my parents here in 1943, but the Holy Spirit has erased my hate & replaced it with love".

Fuchida couldn't understand this. In his culture, a parent-killer was the child's sworn enemy for life, til he/she could gain revenge. Intrigued, he began reading a Bible to learn about the Holy Spirit. This led to his becoming a Christian & evangelist, both in Japan & the US for the remaining 26 years of his life.

Calvinists will argue he was predestined, but the truth is that he found Jesus on his own, of his own free will. Yes, he was predestined for heaven once he came to Jesus, but before that, he was predestined to hell. Once he came to Jesus, He changed Fuchida's predestination.

 

[Dave G]

But GOD made them become for everyone, as He made them Scripture, which is for everyone.

Scripture is for God's people, roby.
He that is "of God" will hear God's words ( John 8:47 ).

No one else will.

 

[Scott Downey]

Scripture is for God's people, roby.
He that is "of God" will hear God's words ( John 8:47 ).

No one else will.

It is true, God has not given some people eyes that can see, ears that can hear, a heart the perceives Him at work, or a mind that understands the things He says.
Moses spoke that to the people years ago in ancient times, and it is still true today.
Even seeing miracles does not mean people believe in Christ. If the heart remain as it is naturally born, then it is fleshly, devilish, carnal and not spiritual. You must be born again or you will not see the kingdom of God, as in perceive, you will consider it just foolishness, and will be at enmity with the Father and Christ. The world is at enmity with God, God must love someone with a great love for Him to make them born of God, then they are of God and can hear what God says, Those who are of God hear God speak. When speaking to the unbelievers, Christ tells them you do not hear, because you are not of God. To be of God means He has begotten you again and is at work in your life to save you. Otherwise you remain at enmity with the Father.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, you must be born again.
A baby does not choose for itself to be born.

Deuteronomy 29
2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

 

[atpollard]

Why have Bibles, preaching, worship, etc. if everyone's already unalterably predestinated ?

MEANS of grace (but not the source).

 

[atpollard]

No no we do not add words to scripture. That is never ok

Better let the publishers of AMPLIFIED Bibles know that.