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How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.
- Thread starter 1689Dave
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Yes, how very kind of you to make my point for me. Here's some more translations showing the proper translation is "faithfulness" and not "faith".
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [NJKV]
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness [ESV]
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [NIV]
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [RSV]
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness [NLT]
Now you are saying that if "we do something" the "gospel becomes law and grace becomes works." Have you already abandoned (forgotten?) your very own OP? You said "free will makes the gospel become law and grace become works".
Must keep repeating it. Even with variations, I guess. It might come true some millennia.
1689Dave said:
1689Dave said:
Well, all righty then. President Trump is looking for a new solicitor general to argue cases in front of the Supreme Court. You should send him your resume.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Salvation changes you into a repentant believer.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It's all the same. a fruit (effect) of the Holy Spirit.
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
Concerning God, GRACE: is a pass,through the kindness or help of God: That means through faith in His gift of Mercy (Jesus Christ) you have been given a pass. Instead of being held in contempt, through your sins, by accepting Jesus as your Savior you are set free. Not by any good work that you could possibly do but by Jesus who took all sins upon Himself. It is impossible to not sin according to the old man. In the New man (Christ) within, you will conquer sin. You will fall and stumble from time to time ( what Christ's carrying of the cross means) but you will accomplish conquering the flesh( what the nailing of Christ's flesh represents). Soon your flesh is put in submission to the Spirit which is Christ who dwells within you. THE CHOICE of Christ is a decision made in faith and works.
Both are one. You can not have one without the other. That work- is in your choice , the choosing of Christ, in your YES, in accepting Christ as you Savior. It is different than just works that are good but are not in Christ. Those works can not get you into heaven or to the Father. "I am the way , the truth and the life , no one comes to the Father except through me."
James 2:17-19
Faith and Works
…17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.…
The point is, there is a work accompanied in choosing Christ by faith. James says they can not be separated. "and I will show you my faith by my deeds." To know they are ONE is to believe God is One.
There should be no argument concerning this. It is an impossible dividing just as God can not be.God revealed in three divine ways does not mean a dividing or separateness . That is the way faith and Works are. That is what James is revealing. So what is the beef? To profess with your mouth is a work in faith. That work /deed shows your faith.
Rockson
Active Member
Well at least you have a stance that mankind after the fall had FREE WILL. You appear to me as an oddity among Calvinist/Reformed or whatever you call yourself. Sorry but I still don't agree with nearly everything you say but you're on the right track on at least one thing...mankind HAS FREE WILL.
Rockson
Active Member
I pick up God's word, and dig into it...
It's amazing what comes out.
It's all to the glory of God and His mercy.
Well my friend maybe you need to dig a little deeper to get proper CONTEXT of things. I think you would be even more amazed to find out that God is a lot more merciful than you've ever dared to imagine as in he loves every single person on the planet? Please give it some thought.
Rockson
Active Member
But then again you want nothing less than for mankind of be a mere automation as really all Calvinists demand. Sorry Dave but this places you in a position of knowing very little of the true character of God.
Where , in Scripture, does God say He did away with free will ???????????????????????????????????
If God had wanted, He coulda made all created beings incapable of the slightest disobedience. But it's apparent He wants people to serve Him from LOVE, not automaticity or fear. Thus, He leaves us free to choose to serve & obey Him, or not, with final results for either choice. What we cannot do is vacillate between one of the 2 choices.
Horse Feathers!
The demons believe! They've all actually SEEN & HEARD Jesus! Yes, they believe, and TREMBLE! They know their doom !
Having seen & heard Jesus quite-often, as well as His Father, they knew better than to sin, but did so anyway, so there's no forgiveness for them. OTOH, WE believe by FAITH, having not seen nor heard Jesus, so we have forgiveness by Him for our sins as we didn't know any better before . But we have plenty of EVIDENCE supporting our faith.
Dave, you've been wrong on so many things, from partial preterism to this. You really need to prayerfully overhaul your theology !
CorrectMark,
Please forgive me in advance for my apparent tone, but this subject is one that I am especially passionate about.
I believe that in past threads, I've firmly established the difference between what a true gift is, and what constitutes a "gift that comes with strings attached";
You have disagreed, and that is your prerogative.
But I will re-state this anyway, for the benefit of those who read it and may end up agreeing, as rare as that may seem:
With regard to biblical salvation,
Choice is meritorious, if God credits the correct choice in the receiving of the gift, while denying credit to the one who refuses it.
The result?
The person who chooses correctly, makes his own destiny.
What's not attractive to the man who hates God, about that?
Fallen human pride wants what it wants, and if it can get it, it will "step up to the plate" and agree to almost anything...and there are plenty of groups out there that cater to that very thing.
For example, I can walk down to any of 9 different street corners ( that have a building full of professing believers on it ) in my town of 5,300 people, and get the same, basic message.
Salvation for a price.
In computer language, we call it an "If-Then-Else" statement.
To me, that is cheap, and reduces God's glorious Gospel to something that it isn't....an "offer".
I'm sorry that you and I disagree, but to me, anything that stoops to the level of appealing to man's selfish pride, sense of comfort, sense of "getting God off my back" or "making an attractive deal" / "rescuing me from my certain eternal punishment", and offers us something that can be gained by performing an act, any act, is simply not the Gospel of God's grace to sinners.
As I see it, you really are unable to grasp what the gift of God actually is.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The demons do not have Holy Spirit faith. They believe just as anyone who believes based on sight.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If the truth makes us free, how can we have free will before being born again? You cannot know the truth until then.
“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
We are free only to sin. It is the truth that makes us free. But unless born again, we cannot tune in to spiritual truth.
“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)
Rockson
Active Member
Good grief 1689Dave! Here you advocate non-born again people DO NOT have FREE WILL! But your statements just prior you stated that they did (see your quote in blue below)
1689Dave said: Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.
Well to readers I think this demonstrates how Calvinists are all over the map with no consistency in just about anything they say. So free will exists for those trying to keep the law but free will does not exist until you stop doing so and get saved?
Sorry my friend but you've just got to accept that there are some messages people bring that indeed are just that....foolishness. Unfortunately yours (and I'll be as gracious as possible) at least on these particular subjects and themes, is one of them.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Before the New Birth the will can only choose sin. After the New Birth the will can choose sin or righteousness. But is biased towards righteousness.
Rockson
Active Member
You said man DID have FREE WILL prior to being saved. Than you switched that and said man's will isn't FREE until being saved. Sorry Dave but you need to have accountability for the things you say and not always trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat to divert attention away from your inconsistencies .
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