How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

[loDebar]

" Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

"Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart." ( 2 Timothy 2:22 ).

" Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:" ( 1 Timothy 1:5 ).

" The LORD [is] nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth." ( Psalms 145:18 ).

" The LORD [is] far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous." ( Proverbs 15:29 ).


Not every one that prays to Him, gets heard.
He only hears the prayers of them He has saved for Himself.

"Praying a prayer", or "calling upon the Lord" if one is not saved, will not gain any favor with God ( Romans 9:15-16 ).
Religious people do it all the time.

Did you truly believe?
Then He will hear your prayers when you call upon Him...in truth, out of a pure heart ( that He has begotten in you into with the word of truth ( James 1:18 ) ), and because He has made you righteous by the blood of His Son.

God hears the prayer of all,. He dos not hear the prayer in the wrong attitude. He hears the repentant sinner.prayers but not the selfish unrepentant
Psa 34:15

The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Psa 34:16

The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

you do not realize who we are nor why we are here

 

[robycop3]

They freely chose to sin. But God provided the reasons they based their choices on. Did he not?

So, you admit they FREELY chose to sin ? Good! Now, you're getting somewhere !

As I said, it woulda been easy for God to have made man incapable of sinning, but it's plain that man's free will is GOD'S will. God did NOT make Eve eat the forbidden fruit. NNE made her do it but herself. She chose to believe Sneaky Snake of her own free will.

 

[robycop3]

Er, Adam was not the firs sinner?

No, Eve was, among humans. Satan had sinned much-earlier.

 

[1689Dave]

So, you admit they FREELY chose to sin ? Good! Now, you're getting somewhere !

As I said, it woulda been easy for God to have made man incapable of sinning, but it's plain that man's free will is GOD'S will. God did NOT make Eve eat the forbidden fruit. NNE made her do it but herself. She chose to believe Sneaky Snake of her own free will.

Adam wanted to sin or he would not have. Just as you or I would do in his situation not being born again.

 

[1689Dave]

I've heard this debate for years. I've concluded it comes down to how you view faith. If faith is meritorious, yes, freewill is a problem. If faith is not meritorious, then really, there's no problem at all. Believers are no more deserving of heaven than non-believers. It is God who reckons faith as righteousness, of his own free will, with no obligation. We can say, we believed, but really, is that something worth boasting about? Was God obligated to reckon our faith? Does faith earn heaven, or does God have to reckon our faith? If the latter, then salvation is 100% of God, even if we believed of our own free will.

It's more about law keeping. Law needs free will, the gospel does not unless you present it as law. If you do, you corrupt it.

 

[1689Dave]

Does the Bible say directly that he was saved at that time?

It shows he was saved having the fruits of the Spirit. It also shows he was born again by his response to Peter. If it quacks and walks like a Duck, it probably is a duck....

 

[loDebar]

It's more about law keeping. Law needs free will, the gospel does not unless you present it as law. If you do, you corrupt it.

The Law cannot save, Keeping the Law was to sustain Israel as a nation in order for tr Messiah to come. Free will exists without Salvation or the Law. Any choice to sin is free will

 

[Revmitchell]

It shows he was saved having the fruits of the Spirit. It also shows he was born again by his response to Peter. If it quacks and walks like a Duck, it probably is a duck....

Great philosophy but philosophy is not scripture

 

[1689Dave]

Great philosophy but philosophy is not scripture

Jesus says "you'll know them by their fruits". Cornelius did born again works long before he heard Peter preach.

 

[Revmitchell]

Jesus says "you'll know them by their fruits". Cornelius did born again works long before he heard Peter preach.

Then he didn't need peter or the gospel

 

[1689Dave]

Then he didn't need peter or the gospel

The gospel saves us from many physical ills. He sent his word and healed them.

 

[Revmitchell]

The gospel saves us from many physical ills. He sent his word and healed them.

No no he was already saved he has no need for the gospel. Peter wasted his time.

 

[1689Dave]

No no he was already saved he has no need for the gospel. Peter wasted his time.

Try having your life saved by a pacemaker and then refuse to read or hear the directions.

 

[Revmitchell]

Try having your life saved by a pacemaker and then refuse to read or hear the directions.

Now you are either missing the point or ignoring it to redirect. Scripture says one cannot be saved without the gospel. You are saying Cornelius was already saved prior to hearing the gospel. So who is wrong you or scripture?

 

[1689Dave]

Now you are either missing the point or ignoring it to redirect. Scripture says one cannot be saved without the gospel. You are saying Cornelius was already saved prior to hearing the gospel. So who is wrong you or scripture?

How are infants, OT saints in Hebrews 11 and others saved if it isn't the New Birth also making the gospel believable?

 

[Revmitchell]

How are infants, OT saints in Hebrews 11 and others saved if it isn't the New Birth also making the gospel believable?

Infants are not discussed in scripture except David's child. OT saints were saved same as we are. Believing in the Messiah.

 

[utilyan]

Every instance of a person being saved at a particular moment is false, having been never in danger from the foundation. Also they are not born-again, they are just perfectly born once. You can't be saved unless there was a real danger.

This also render unconditional election false. Its fully conditional on being created for damnation or not.

Satan wins Job's Challenge. The only reason Job is loyal to God is because God forced him to be.

 

[1689Dave]

Infants are not discussed in scripture except David's child. OT saints were saved same as we are. Believing in the Messiah.

The Messiah was only a vague hint in the garden. But it took the new birth to discern the spiritual truth in the symbols of Eden.

 

[Revmitchell]

The Messiah was only a vague hint in the garden. But it took the new birth to discern the spiritual truth in the symbols of Eden.

So you still sticking to that cornelius didnt need the gospel to be saved?

 

[Dave G]

God hears the prayer of all,. He dos not hear the prayer in the wrong attitude. He hears the repentant sinner.prayers but not the selfish unrepentant
Psa 34:15

The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Psa 34:16

The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Psalms 34:15 tells me that His eyes are upon the righteous, not the unrighteous.
No one is righteous outside the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
No one is declared righteous except by the blood of God's Son.

Psalms 34:16 tells me that the face of the Lord is against them that do evil ( please see John 3:19-20 ).

So, from God's perspective, the "wicked" are anyone He has not justified by the blood of His Son.
The "righteous" are those He has made righteous ( 2 Corinthians 5:29 ), while the "wicked" are all those He has not.
Believers are "the righteous", while unbelievers are "the wicked".

He does not hear the prayers of the wicked.
Attitude comes from the heart.
Repentance can only exist in a believer, not an unbeliever, and godly sorrow that works repentance can only exist in someone whose nature is no longer rebellious towards the Lord.
One must be born again in order for that change in attitude to take place.

you do not realize who we are nor why we are here

Sure I do.
Believers are here for many reason, one of which is to occupy until He comes again ( Luke 19:13 ).
We are the "salt" of the earth ( Matthew 15:13 ), which God looks at and instead of destroying, He withholds judgment on it for our sake ( Matthew 24:22, 2 Peter 3:8-10 ).