The blood was absolutely necessary.
Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
The onus is on you to show where wrath of God was being poured out on His Son.
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How is the Wrath Of the Father Appeased if Not PST Atonement?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
The onus is on you to show where wrath of God was being poured out on His Son.
“It’s there”
“where?”
“right there”
“show me”
“there, it’s right there.”
ok
The issue is his presuppositions.
If I tell you an ink blot is a pic of a bat then you will always see it as a bat rather than the ink blot it really is.
There are no passages that teach God poured out His wrath on Christ as the idea is the exact opposite of what Scripture does present.
But if you approach Scripture with that presupposition then you may see it implied through Scripture.
I personally believe it is for a lack biblical literacy. People disciple themselves under writers and commentaries that appeal to them and they carry that into Scripture.
In the past I have asked people to post the passage and put in bold where Scripture says God poured out His wrath on Christ. Of course, they cannot. But that will not stom them from claiming otherwise.
37818
Well-Known Member
What does it mean that Christ was forsaken by God, ". . . My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken Me? . . ." That is solely how it is stated.
According to most on this thread no one in Acts was born again because the words born again don't appear show me a verse in Acts that say any person was born again.
You do realize Christ calls God His father and commends His spirit to Him as well right? Also, He asks His father to forgive those who put him on the cross. That doesn’t sound like He was forsaken.
Why was the blood absolutely necessary. In order for me to answer what you're asking I have to know why you believe the blood was absolutely necessary what required that blood to be shed?
37818
Well-Known Member
He asks His Father to forgive them, Luke 23:34, prior to Him being forsaken, Mark 15:34, Isaiah 53:10, Isaiah 53:12, Romans 5:8. Which was completed, John 19:28, prior to His physical death, John 19:30, Luke 23:46, where His soul bad been restored.
I believe it means Christ was forsaken to suffer and die. God did not deliver Him from death but through death.
This is a special assurance to the believer. We may be forsaken to suffer in this life, but God will never abandon us. He will be there and deliver us from death.
Restored?
37818
Well-Known Member
When He was forsaken on the cross His soul died, ". . . his soul an offering for sin, . . ." And after that was done, "Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished . . . ." The word accomplished, is the very same word translated "It is finished," in John 19:30 after which Jesus now not being forsaken said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: . . ." Luke 23:46.
So you’re saying His soul died on the cross? But physically he did not die yet, and that’s how God poured out His wrath? On His soul?
37818
Well-Known Member
Jesus had two deaths on the cross according to prophecy, Isaiah 53:9, ". . . And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death* . . . ." * Hebrew: deaths. The propitiation was made with His soul by way of His shed blood, Isaiah 53:12, ". . . poured out his soul unto death . . . ." And was completed before His physical death, John 19:28-30. And His physical death was for His bodily resurrection, Romans 1:4, Acts of the Apostles 13:33, Colossians 1:18, Romans 8:29.
I believe the Hebrew מָוֶת does not signify plural "deaths". It is not plural as in two deaths. The passage is talking about two things concerning one physical death.
What was accomplished, IMHO, is that Christ obediently obeyed the will of the Father. The Word was made flesh, bore our sin, shared in our "sickness" became a curse for us, and suffered and died a sinners death at the hands of wicked men under the principles of the darkness of this world and by the predetermined plan of God for the redemption of man.
37818
Well-Known Member
Christ had only the one physical death, after He had completed the propitiation for sins, 1 John 4:10, John 19:28, Isaiah 53:12, Romans 3:25.
As far as I know that plural for death only occurs in Isaiah 53:9. And Christ did have two deaths on the cross.
I disagree, but that is fine.
Why do you believe מָוֶת is speaking of multiple deaths on the cross?
One thing I feel I need to mention, because you seem to think that changing your mind necessarily means that you have changed it from wrong to right. That is not necessarily so. Galatians 1:6 should disabuse you of that fallacy.
I have changed my mind on a couple of things since I attended seminary. Obviously I think I've changed from worse to better, but 'it ain't necessarily so!' I need to be constantly checking my understanding against Scripture to be sure that I haven't made an error in changing. And so do you. But in fact, one of the blessings of our long-running saga over Penal Substitution is that it has made me investigate the doctrine far more closely than I have ever done before and that has given me great confidence in its truth.
You say that God's wrath being 'poured out' (your somewhat emotive words, not mine) on Christ is unbiblical. I agree to this point: God is never angry with Christ; He never ceases to be the beloved Son in whom the Father is well pleased. I must have written this at least a dozen times but you never quite seem to get it.
However, Psalms 7:11, NKJV, tells us that God 'is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day.' His anger (or 'wrath') is not a mood or an impulse; it is a steady state of mind, and a righteous one. God is the one 'with whom there is no variation nor shadow of turning.' Contrary to what you seem to believe, God cannot 'just forgive.' 'He is not a man that He should relent.' 'He cannot deny Himself.'
But in His mercy, God has found away to blend His justice with His mercy. 'The LORD has laid on [Christ] the iniquity of us all.' He has willingly borne the punishment for them along with the curse that they carry and God's righteous judicial anger against us on account of them. You ask, is that just? Yes, because Christ has become Surety for His people (Hebrews 7:22). He has become legally responsible to pay our dues. I have pointed out before that in our society, if you become surety or guarantor for someone's debts, the bank will pursue you for them and, perfectly legally, have the shirt of your back if need be, even though you may have lived a life of perfect financial rectitude.
So it is with Christ. He has born, on our behalf, God's wrath against sin and the punishment and the curse of it. If He has not, then God is still angry with us.
'And in that day you will say,
"O LORD, I will praise You;
Though You were angry with me,
Your anger is turned away, and You comfort me.
Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust and not be afraid;
For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and my song;
He has also become my salvation."
Therefore with joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation' (Isaiah 12:1-3).
'That day' is the day of Jesus Christ (11:1, 10). God's anger is turned away only by the satisfaction wrought by Him. He alone could make propitiation for our sins, and in Him God has become our salvation.
Changing my mind is not the point. The change that occurred was via studying Scripture and removing a presupposition (an idea not supported in the Bible but that I brought in to it). God brought me to my understanding of Scripture. I know I do not have a perfect understanding because I am human. But I do have a greater hold on the a written Word than I previously held.
That said, I believe God reveals Scripture to us in a meaningful way. I do not believe it necessary or even good to strip a Christian of all preceived error. By tearing down frameworks and worldviews we risk becoming a stumbling block to others.
I answer for my own faith. Do I despise the theory God poured His wrath on Christ? Yes. I believe it is anti- Biblical. But so is the idea God was paying a ransom to Satan. It is not always worth dispelling myths and narratives people bring into Scripture.
We can disagree as friends. I do not hold towards you the distain I hold for some of your views. I am not your judge and you are not mine. We are fellow servants.
Me thinks I might understand the problem.
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:17
We do not believe that in bold has to do with, "the wrath of God," and if the truth were known most believe what was said in Chapter 3 verse 4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, 'Dying, ye do not die,
And, for sure, most believe that the Son of God could not, dying, die. Therefore there is no way the Son suffered, "the wrath of God," his Father.
Did Jesus, dying, die was he actually, dead, dead for three days and three nights? I wonder just what, the grace of God, is? Who is the only one, born of woman, who did not commit one sin yet gave his life, because of sin?
who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him out of death <Genitive, out of death) -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,
Does one actually need to believe that Jesus the Christ suffered, dying thou dost dieand that God the Father raised him from out of the dead ones?
Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- Gal 1:1 YLT
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:17
We do not believe that in bold has to do with, "the wrath of God," and if the truth were known most believe what was said in Chapter 3 verse 4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, 'Dying, ye do not die,
And, for sure, most believe that the Son of God could not, dying, die. Therefore there is no way the Son suffered, "the wrath of God," his Father.
Did Jesus, dying, die was he actually, dead, dead for three days and three nights? I wonder just what, the grace of God, is? Who is the only one, born of woman, who did not commit one sin yet gave his life, because of sin?
who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him out of death <Genitive, out of death) -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,
Does one actually need to believe that Jesus the Christ suffered, dying thou dost dieand that God the Father raised him from out of the dead ones?
Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- Gal 1:1 YLT
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