How Long Does it Take You to Backslide?

[JesusFan]

Yes, he was talking about fellowship. But the emphasis was on YOU, in other word that HE had to maintain fellowship without the help of God. God keeps my salvation even if I sin. God keeps my salvation, though he chastise me. I remain a child of his even if I don't repent. I will never fall away from God, even if I live a carnal life. I will always remain a child of God. Like the prodigal son, if I go and live a life a sin for a period of time, I remain his child. That is eternal security.

This is an area where hopefully BOTH cal and non cal would agree...

Regardless of just HOW you view the concept of Election, once you get daved, than we are indeed 'predestined" to make it to heaven, and to be continually confirmed while here into image of Jesus!

 

[DHK]

This is an area where hopefully BOTH cal and non cal would agree...

Regardless of just HOW you view the concept of Election, once you get daved, than we are indeed 'predestined" to make it to heaven, and to be continually confirmed while here into image of Jesus!

We used to have a poster on the board who said he believed in eternal security. But when it came right down to it he believed that if you died of a heart attack and had an unrepented sin on your heart, that you would not make it into heaven. He was using that same verse (1John 3:9) out of context just like some here are using.

 

[preacher4truth]

We still have a poster on this board that believes this, not long ago.

Unless he's gone.

I take that back, he didn't believe in OSAS.

Can we make this thread a "STICKY?" :love2:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[JesusFan]

We used to have a poster on the board who said he believed in eternal security. But when it came right down to it he believed that if you died of a heart attack and had an unrepented sin on your heart, that you would not make it into heaven. He was using that same verse (1John 3:9) out of context just like some here are using.

saved and secured, with no Alarm! leaning leaning leaning in the Everlasting Arms!

Remember singing that in the Assemblies of God once attended....

 

[freeatlast]

Just curious, have you ANY sin area where have to keep fighting it. maybe even sin a bit in it?

If you are asking if I have ever had to battle some sin for a length of time, certainly, some for years. However even in those times the sin was never done nonchalant as with the unbeliever and the battle was raging against it every day and confession was always offered even though the sin is not a daily sin.
Like i said for the unbeliever sin is there character. No one who knows them is surprised as it is just expected from them. It is not about how often or how serious. When they sin they see nothing particularly evil about the sin or they excuse it and many times do not even realize they did it as it is their character. For the believer any sin is inexcusable in their heart and it is done out of character with regret, confession, and turning from it to battle another day.

 

[freeatlast]

We used to have a poster on the board who said he believed in eternal security. But when it came right down to it he believed that if you died of a heart attack and had an unrepented sin on your heart, that you would not make it into heaven. He was using that same verse (1John 3:9) out of context just like some here are using.

That is the problem with holding beliefs that are not biblical. If that pastor has believed the scripture he would not have had the problem with eternal security. All he had to do was read 1John 2:19 and believe what it says and his problem would have been solved.
Many twist the scripture to fit their false belief instead of believing what it says. Things like old sin nature in the believer, we all sin daily, and so on are non biblical. However to continue to hold to the belief scripture must be twisted or reconstructed to fit the false belief because they just cannot believe what is written.
If 1John 3 were accepted as it is given in the Greek there would be a whole lot of people who would have to face their false conversions and really repent to be saved.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth (practices) righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth (practices) sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
The problem today is when we see one of these false converts we call them backsliders which is a man made false doctrine instead of believing what 1John 3 and 2:19 says.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[freeatlast]

saved and secured, with no Alarm! leaning leaning leaning in the Everlasting Arms!

Remember singing that in the Assemblies of God once attended....

Great song and true but only if we abide.

 

[JesusFan]

Great song and true but only if we abide.

Either you have "fresh revelation" on this, or jesus lied, as he plainly said ALL those that the father gives unto Him will be kept, NONE can snach them out from the Fathers hand!

 

[preacher4truth]

Great song and true but only if we abide.

Oh. Are you helping Jesus keep you saved?

If not, explain.

 

[DHK]

That is the problem with holding beliefs that are not biblical. If that pastor has believed the scripture he would not have had the problem with eternal security. All he had to do was read 1John 2:19 and believe what it says and his problem would have been solved.
Many twist the scripture to fit their false belief instead of believing what it says. Things like old sin nature in the believer, we all sin daily, and so on are non biblical. However to continue to hold to the belief scripture must be twisted or reconstructed to fit the false belief because they just cannot believe what is written.
If 1John 3 were accepted as it is given in the Greek there would be a whole lot of people who would have to face their false conversions and really repent to be saved.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth (practices) righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth (practices) sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
The problem today is when we see one of these false converts we call them backsliders which is a man made false doctrine instead of believing what 1John 3 and 2:19 says.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I have one thing to say to you:

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Romans 14:10)

The Lord knows them that are his (backslider or not).
You don't.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks, I appreciate that you provided links (I must have missed that).

I will only say this: if for some reason I was only in possession of one
portion of Scripture it would be Paul's Epistles to the Corinthians.

Corinthians provides the "blueprint" for Christian living. It provides the
information necessary to live the SPIRITUAL Christian Life. I have not
been taught this truth by any other human like a pastor, elder, etc.
I received this personal "insight" only last Thanksgiving, and I have been
a born-again Christian since 1962.

I will be honest, since I have discovered the SPIRITUAL life I am now
producing "gold, silver, and precious stones" instead of "wood, hay, and
stubble". I am focused on the Bemis Seat of Christ. Each day is a new
adventure for me.

Focusing on the Epistles to the GENTILES (Epistles of Paul) have been
KEY. The Epistle to the Corinthians has been PIVOTAL and most RELEVANT.

I would only comment that the term "Carnal" may throw readers off. Perhaps
a better word would be Un-Spiritual as opposed to "Spiritual".
Perhaps "Immature" would be the most fitting.

Anyone who is not receiving guidance, wisdom and understanding directly from
the Holy Spirit on a CONTINUAL basis is an IMMATURE Christian regardless
of age or position or length of time being a Christian. To me it is SHOCKING
to see the number of "Pastors" and "Teachers" who fall into this category.
It is but a "sign of the times".

beamup...

could you explain what you mean by this statement;

I have not
been taught this truth by any other human like a pastor, elder, etc.
I received this personal "insight" only last Thanksgiving, and I have been
a born-again Christian since 1962.

1]how did you receive this personal insight?

2] how did you know you received it?

3] what were you before you were a "born again "christian?

 

[Robert Snow]

So you don't sin?
yes from time to time.



How many days per week would you say a person should average sinlessly for you to believe them to be saved?
The 1John passage is not about frequency, time frame of type of sin. It is about character. For a Christian to sin it shocks those around them as well as themselves. For the lost to sin no one is shocked as it is their character.


Do you know how to interpret Scripture with Scripture?
yes

No you have no clue how to compare scripture with scripture. If you did, you would forsake this false interpretation of I Jn. 3:9.

In fact, you contradict yourself. You admit you sin. This verse says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin..." It doesn't say they commit only one sin, or only a few. It says, "doth NOT commit sin."

Now if you compare this bible passage with the rest of the bible, you see a different picture than you are painting by a long shot. In fact, DHK has been trying to show you, but your pride will not allow you to see it (you do know pride is also a sin).

 

[DHK]

If you are asking if I have ever had to battle some sin for a length of time, certainly, some for years. However even in those times the sin was never done nonchalant as with the unbeliever and the battle was raging against it every day and confession was always offered even though the sin is not a daily sin.

But it is a battle. You now admit this. You have battled with sin, and for a length of time, even for years. Your admission of this is an admission of an old nature; a sin nature which you battle with every day. Every Christian does. We battle with sin every day because that battle arises out of our sinful nature. This is what Paul was teaching in Romans chapter 7.

It would be good for you to do a verse by verse exposition of Romans 7:7-25. Explain what each verse means--why and what Paul is saying.

We are in a spiritual battle. We battle the old nature every day. It is our carnal nature. We still have it.

 

[freeatlast]

I have one thing to say to you:

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Romans 14:10)

The Lord knows them that are his (backslider or not).
You don't.

First off it is not judging by the standards of scripture although satan would love us to believe it is so as to keep the truth from being known. If you remember we can know them by their fruit and in Acts 8 we can clearly see Peter telling the man Simon he was lost. Just think of it. What fool would go to the Doctor and the doctor tell them they have cancer only to reply who are you to judge me? The same with anyone who is claiming to be saved in church or out of church when they clearly meet the evidence of being lost. The disservice is to allow them to continue on without confrontation all because of believing satan instead of the Lord as it shows a clear lack of love for the sinner.
So according to scripture you are wrong. First there is no such thing as a backslider and second those who have been led astray by false teaching to think they are saved can be known by their fruits. The only reason anyone would not want to be judged is because the have something to hide. satan uses the scripture to keep the lost in his care and many today have jumped into his camp to help him.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

The problem is not with the scriptures or even what they mean as they are clear. The problem is with so many in the church that has turned from the word to come up with its own teachings contrary to what the Lord has given, following after what satan says, but this too is spoken of.

 

[freeatlast]

But it is a battle. You now admit this. You have battled with sin, and for a length of time, even for years. Your admission of this is an admission of an old nature; a sin nature which you battle with every day. Every Christian does. We battle with sin every day because that battle arises out of our sinful nature. This is what Paul was teaching in Romans chapter 7.

It would be good for you to do a verse by verse exposition of Romans 7:7-25. Explain what each verse means--why and what Paul is saying.

We are in a spiritual battle. We battle the old nature every day. It is our carnal nature. We still have it.

No it is not that I now admit it as I have always said that. Perhaps your age is causing you to forget what I wrote. :laugh: Hopefully that is all it is as know you would not miss-represent, would you? raying:
The battle is not with a sin nature as that is mans fornication of scripture. We are left with the flesh not a nature.

 

[DHK]

No it is not that I now admit it as I have always said that. Perhaps your age is causing you to forget what I wrote. :laugh: Hopefully that is all it is as know you would not miss-represent, would you? raying:
The battle is not with a sin nature as that is mans fornication of scripture. We are left with the flesh not a nature.

And how do you think Scripture differentiates between the two?

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16)

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

I am not asking you to differentiate between works and fruit.

What is the difference between the flesh and the nature?

 

[DHK]

First off it is not judging by the standards of scripture although satan would love us to believe it is so as to keep the truth from being known. If you remember we can know them by their fruit

Mat.7:20. What is the verse referring to? Works? No it isn't. Go and check the context? This is just another verse taken out of context. How do you judge someone by their works?

and in Acts 8 we can clearly see Peter telling the man Simon he was lost.

Peter was an apostle. Are you?

Just think of it. What fool would go to the Doctor and the doctor tell them they have cancer only to reply who are you to judge me? The same with anyone who is claiming to be saved in church or out of church when they clearly meet the evidence of being lost.

And what evidence is that? Are you God. Do you know the heart?
The heart is deceitful and wicked above all things. Who can know it?
Certainly not you!! God alone knows the heart. Not you.

The disservice is to allow them to continue on without confrontation all because of believing satan instead of the Lord as it shows a clear lack of love for the sinner.

You don't love the sinner? Shame on you! If you have someone disobedient to the Scriptures in your church why not go to him. The Scriptures teach that the strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak. What do you think that means?

So according to scripture you are wrong. First there is no such thing as a backslider and second those who have been led astray by false teaching to think they are saved can be known by their fruits.

The word backsliding is used in the Scripture, so I believe you are wrong.
Secondly, you don't know what "fruits" to look for, so how would you know? You take Scripture out of context, and the Scripture you use you don't know the meaning of.

The only reason anyone would not want to be judged is because the have something to hide.

You have been trying to hide the truth of Scripture here--probably because you don't want to listen to what the real truth teaches.

satan uses the scripture to keep the lost in his care and many today have jumped into his camp to help him.

That is true. You ought not to misuse Scripture.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

You need to find out what these verses mean before posting them on the board.

The problem is not with the scriptures or even what they mean as they are clear.

If they were as clear as you think why don't you know the meaning?

The problem is with so many in the church that has turned from the word to come up with its own teachings contrary to what the Lord has given, following after what satan says, but this too is spoken of.

You have displayed this in your own post. You don't know the meanings of these verses.

 

[preacher4truth]

If we didn't have the struggle of the old, then we would not have Romans 7, we would not be commanded to put off the "old man" we would not be told to "renew" our minds, we would not be told to walk in the Spirit v. the flesh, we would not have many warnings, neither would we be told to put off this old man full of deceit and lust, as in Ephesians 4:22, contrary to Gerald, who says it doesn't exist. Nor would we be instructed in the 23rd verse to renew our minds.

According to Scripture? It does exist, no matter what MacArthur taught you Gerald.

 

[freeatlast]

And how do you think Scripture differentiates between the two?

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16)

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

I am not asking you to differentiate between works and fruit.

What is the difference between the flesh and the nature?

Nature (old nature which we are born with) is what comes naturally. The lost sin by nature. No child has to be taught to sin as it is their nature to sin.

The flesh is that which feeds the old nature while we are lost and after conversion seeks to influence the new nature to sin as there is no old nature in the believer to any more feed. Our new nature now is to live for the Lord and keep His commandments.

Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Actually that is a poor translation and it should read;
Old things are passed away and are passing away, behold all things are new and becoming new.
In other words at the moment of salvation every thing about the the person is passed away and made new. The next day it happens again (not salvation but the passing and the new). Everything about the person that was of yesterday is now old and is passed away and now all things this new day are being made new and each day forward is like that (it is the process called sanctification).

 

[freeatlast]

If we didn't have the struggle of the old, then we would not have Romans 7, we would not be commanded to put off the "old man" we would not be told to "renew" our minds, we would not be told to walk in the Spirit v. the flesh, we would not have many warnings, neither would we be told to put off this old man full of deceit and lust, as in Ephesians 4:22, contrary to Gerald, who says it doesn't exist. Nor would we be instructed in the 23rd verse to renew our minds.

According to Scripture? It does exist, no matter what MacArthur taught you Gerald.

yes we do have to struggle because we are still in the flesh. New wine has been put in old wine skins and it will one day burst open and replaced with new wine skins.
When the scripture tells us to put off the old and on the new it is not suggesting that in our rebirth we still practice sin as that is impossible for a true believer 1John 3. It is calling us to no sin at all. Put it all off and do not even entertain the impression of sin much less do it.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from even the appearance of evil.

That is our calling to the believer and the church is not relating that to the people.
Instead the church today is hearing from most of those who lead that we all sin daily, and we are not under the law, and no one can keep the commandments. We have fallen to the tactics of satan. he spoke scripture but spoke it out of context and only in part to make it sound like something it was not. he even tried to use it against the Lord, but the Lord used it properly. The church has to return to using the scripture properly and call the saints to the same level that the scripture calls us to.
For if ye (are those who) live after the flesh, ye shall die (eternal torment, hell fire): but if ye (are those who) through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live (have received eternal life).