How Long Does it Take You to Backslide?

[DHK]

The 1John 1:8 It has nothing to with Christians sinning daily.

It has to do with sinless perfection. All men sin. The sin nature has not been eradicated. If you say it has then you call Christ a liar and you have deceived yourself. That is the clear teaching of the passage. Five times in those two verses (8 and 10) is the pronoun "we" used, meaning John includes himself. John the apostle is not an unbeliever!!

The passage is dealing with the lost not the saved. I can see you are not aware of this but John was writing to deal with what are called Gnostics. They held many false beliefs but one was that the flesh was sinful and the spirit was not and one could not effect the other. So they claimed they had no sin as they claimed their spirit was sinless. John says if anyone claims no sin they are a liar. John is not talking about a believer, but false a group that with a false claim.

I am well aware of the historical background of this epistle. That has nothing to do with it. John doesn't mention the gnostics. You are reading that into it. John is teaching truth, not gnosticism. Realize that. If you don't understand this, let me give you an example:

An expert at spotting counterfeit bills was asked how she could spot all the different counterfeit bills. She replied that she couldn't. But rather that she studied the genuine so thoroughly that any bill that didn't match up to the genuine was automatically rejected as being counterfeit or fake.
So it is with us. We need not know anything about gnosticism, and neither did they. John was teaching the truth of the Word. As long as they knew the Word, all heresies would be spotted in the light of God's Word. Thus the statement of John:
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)
--The Holy Spirit through the Word of God taught them. They didn't have to study "gnosticism."

Now, look at chapter one. Every verse speaks to and about believers. There is not one verse that speaks about the lost. John's epistle is directed to the believers, those in Christ.

No Christian can backslide and no Christian has to sin daily. Both are false teaching that many pastors give to cover their own sin.

This is simply your opinion, your human philosophy--something you repeat over and over again without any Biblical evidence. You are unable to refute the Biblical evidence I give you, and you have none of your own to offer.

 

[Iconoclast]

I did quote from John 16:3, so to eliminate all confusion I will stick to the Apostle to the Gentiles... Paul.
1 Corinthians offers us teaching from the Holy Spirit concerning "Spiritual" and "Carnal" Christians.

But God hath revealed unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things
that are freely given to us of God. - 1 Cor 2:10,12

Recall the illustration of the "Carnal" Christian. The Carnal Christian is the Christian who is still guided by the Ego
as is the "Natural Man". He is guided by his SELF, he is SELF CENTERED. The Carnal Christian is "fleshly" and
is driven by Pride and Self-Interest. He may "appear" spiritual but is walking blindfolded.

On the other hand, the "Spiritual" Christian is guided by the Holy Spirit; he
is "Walking in the Spirit". He is "Christ-Centered". Jesus is on the "throne"
of his Life. He listens to the Holy Spirit. He LEARNS from the Holy Spirit.

I do not think PaUL wrote that tract , or the unbiblical picture of a rebellious person ,who does not submit to Jesus as Lord.

 

[beameup]

You wrote:

There are only two men......the carnal man,and the spiritual man.
the teaching of the carnal christian is heresy.
Scofield notes at the bottom of the bible are not inspired.

I quoted to you from the Apostle Paul in the letter to the Corinthians.
Are you inferring that Paul's Epistles are heretical?

I do not think PaUL wrote that tract , or the unbiblical picture of a rebellious person ,who does not submit to Jesus as Lord.

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. I also quoted to you the Apostle Paul
in the letter to the Corinthians. Are you inferring that Paul's Epistles are heretical?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

Note that Paul addresses them as BROTHERS. The Carnal (Self-Directed) Christian and the Spiritual (Holy Spirit Directed)
are "BROTHERS". Paul is writing to them to show them that they need to progress from the Carnal to the Spiritual and not
remain "babes in Christ".

Natural Man >> Carnal Christian >> Spiritual Christian

 

[Iconoclast]

You wrote:



I quoted to you from the Apostle Paul in the letter to the Corinthians.
Are you inferring that Paul's Epistles are heretical?



Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. I also quoted to you the Apostle Paul
in the letter to the Corinthians. Are you inferring that Paul's Epistles are heretical?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

Note that Paul addresses them as BROTHERS. The Carnal (Self-Directed) Christian and the Spiritual (Holy Spirit Directed)
are "BROTHERS". Paul is writing to them to show them that they need to progress from the Carnal to the Spiritual and not
remain "babes in Christ".

Natural Man >> Carnal Christian >> Spiritual Christian

beamup....

see posts #162...163 for answer:thumbs

natural man.....spiritual man....thats all.

 

[beameup]

beamup....

see posts #162...163 for answer:thumbs

natural man.....spiritual man....thats all.

Thanks, I went back and red them. I am trying to simplify as much as possible.
I also stick to Pauline Epistles and in this case the 1 Corinthians 2 & 3rd Chap.


Natural Man................... Carnal Non-Spiritual Christian.............Spiritual Christian

The Carnal Christian can lead a godly appearing life, attend church, participate in church activilties.
Often a Carnal Christian will become judgemental. This is because they are comparing themselves with others.
Jealousy, envy, strife ensue. This is the condition that I find most Gentile Christians sadly.
As well, you have the unregenerate in the Gentile Church population.
Sadly there are not many spiritual Christians in the churches or the pulpit.

As far as BACKSLIDING goes, I consider it an Old Testament concept. Prior
to the Holy Spirit coming along side and coming INTO us following being born
again; the Holy Spirit came along side believers in the OT. The Israelis were
always backsliding and following after false idols. There salvation was not
SECURE and IRREFUTABLE.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks, I went back and red them. I am trying to simplify as much as possible.
I also stick to Pauline Epistles and in this case the 1 Corinthians 2 & 3rd Chap.


Natural Man................... Carnal Non-Spiritual Christian.............Spiritual Christian

The Carnal Christian can lead a godly appearing life, attend church, participate in church activilties.
Often a Carnal Christian will become judgemental. This is because they are comparing themselves with others.
Jealousy, envy, strife ensue. This is the condition that I find most Gentile Christians sadly.
As well, you have the unregenerate in the Gentile Church population.
Sadly there are not many spiritual Christians in the churches or the pulpit.

As far as BACKSLIDING goes, I consider it an Old Testament concept. Prior
to the Holy Spirit coming along side and coming INTO us following being born
again; the Holy Spirit came along side believers in the OT. The Israelis were
always backsliding and following after false idols. There salvation was not
SECURE and IRREFUTABLE.

beamup,
You do not need to simplify, I know the teaching.
I was first taught this idea also....I used to give out this tract to people before I learned it was unbiblical.
listen to the messages I gave links to and you will see why.

 

[freeatlast]

It has to do with sinless perfection. All men sin. The sin nature has not been eradicated. If you say it has then you call Christ a liar and you have deceived yourself. That is the clear teaching of the passage. Five times in those two verses (8 and 10) is the pronoun "we" used, meaning John includes himself. John the apostle is not an unbeliever!!
I am well aware of the historical background of this epistle. That has nothing to do with it. John doesn't mention the gnostics. You are reading that into it. John is teaching truth, not gnosticism. Realize that. If you don't understand this, let me give you an example:

An expert at spotting counterfeit bills was asked how she could spot all the different counterfeit bills. She replied that she couldn't. But rather that she studied the genuine so thoroughly that any bill that didn't match up to the genuine was automatically rejected as being counterfeit or fake.
So it is with us. We need not know anything about gnosticism, and neither did they. John was teaching the truth of the Word. As long as they knew the Word, all heresies would be spotted in the light of God's Word. Thus the statement of John:
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)
--The Holy Spirit through the Word of God taught them. They didn't have to study "gnosticism."

Now, look at chapter one. Every verse speaks to and about believers. There is not one verse that speaks about the lost. John's epistle is directed to the believers, those in Christ.

This is simply your opinion, your human philosophy--something you repeat over and over again without any Biblical evidence. You are unable to refute the Biblical evidence I give you, and you have none of your own to offer.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[preacher4truth]

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So you don't sin?

How many days per week would you say a person should average sinlessly for you to believe them to be saved?

Do you know how to interpret Scripture with Scripture?

 

[JesusFan]

So you don't sin?

How many days per week would you say a person should average sinlessly for you to believe them to be saved?

Do you know how to interpret Scripture with Scripture?

Since God reads and knows our very thoughts, our "hidden desires" do ANY of us have nerve to say before Holy God that "I continually keep myself in a state of sinles perfection"

Know that we have both a relationship with God threu jeus, and after that is established with Him, up to us to keep that Fellowship open with Him!

Know that the desire of the father is for us NOT to keep on sinning, and the HS has been given us to have means to avoid that on a habitual basis..

just that "reality" and the Bible tells us that even Saints can have those pesky besitting" sins, and that satan is there to try to get a foothold into our lives, but thru the Bible and the HS can be set free to walk with the Lord as He intends us to...

Know that he is NOT Apostle paul, but John does tell us that we still have sin even as believers, and need to confess and repent to have us restored to God in a 'functional" sense!

 

[freeatlast]

So you don't sin?

How many days per week would you say a person should average sinlessly for you to believe them to be saved?

Do you know how to interpret Scripture with Scripture?

So you don't sin?
yes from time to time.



How many days per week would you say a person should average sinlessly for you to believe them to be saved?
The 1John passage is not about frequency, time frame of type of sin. It is about character. For a Christian to sin it shocks those around them as well as themselves. For the lost to sin no one is shocked as it is their character.


Do you know how to interpret Scripture with Scripture?
yes

 

[JesusFan]

So you don't sin?
yes from time to time.



How many days per week would you say a person should average sinlessly for you to believe them to be saved?
The 1John passage is not about frequency, time frame of type of sin. It is about character. For a Christian to sin it shocks those around them as well as themselves. For the lost to sin no one is shocked as it is their character.


Do you know how to interpret Scripture with Scripture?
yes

Just curious, have you ANY sin area where have to keep fighting it. maybe even sin a bit in it?

 

[preacher4truth]

So you don't sin?
yes from time to time.



How many days per week would you say a person should average sinlessly for you to believe them to be saved?
The 1John passage is not about frequency, time frame of type of sin. It is about character. For a Christian to sin it shocks those around them as well as themselves. For the lost to sin no one is shocked as it is their character.


Do you know how to interpret Scripture with Scripture?
yes

I am glad you use Scripture to interpret Scripture. Do so with 1 John also. It is not an island unto itself, to do so would be proof-texting.

 

[beameup]

beamup,
You do not need to simplify, I know the teaching.
I was first taught this idea also....I used to give out this tract to people before I learned it was unbiblical.
listen to the messages I gave links to and you will see why.

Thanks, I appreciate that you provided links (I must have missed that).

I will only say this: if for some reason I was only in possession of one
portion of Scripture it would be Paul's Epistles to the Corinthians.

Corinthians provides the "blueprint" for Christian living. It provides the
information necessary to live the SPIRITUAL Christian Life. I have not
been taught this truth by any other human like a pastor, elder, etc.
I received this personal "insight" only last Thanksgiving, and I have been
a born-again Christian since 1962.

I will be honest, since I have discovered the SPIRITUAL life I am now
producing "gold, silver, and precious stones" instead of "wood, hay, and
stubble". I am focused on the Bemis Seat of Christ. Each day is a new
adventure for me.

Focusing on the Epistles to the GENTILES (Epistles of Paul) have been
KEY. The Epistle to the Corinthians has been PIVOTAL and most RELEVANT.

I would only comment that the term "Carnal" may throw readers off. Perhaps
a better word would be Un-Spiritual as opposed to "Spiritual".
Perhaps "Immature" would be the most fitting.

Anyone who is not receiving guidance, wisdom and understanding directly from
the Holy Spirit on a CONTINUAL basis is an IMMATURE Christian regardless
of age or position or length of time being a Christian. To me it is SHOCKING
to see the number of "Pastors" and "Teachers" who fall into this category.
It is but a "sign of the times".

 

[JesusFan]

Thanks, I appreciate that you provided links (I must have missed that).

I will only say this: if for some reason I was only in possession of one
portion of Scripture it would be Paul's Epistles to the Corinthians.

Corinthians provides the "blueprint" for Christian living. It provides the
information necessary to live the SPIRITUAL Christian Life. I have not
been taught this truth by any other human like a pastor, elder, etc.
I received this personal "insight" only last Thanksgiving, and I have been
a born-again Christian since 1962.

I will be honest, since I have discovered the SPIRITUAL life I am now
producing "gold, silver, and precious stones" instead of "wood, hay, and
stubble". I am focused on the Bemis Seat of Christ. Each day is a new
adventure for me.

Focusing on the Epistles to the GENTILES (Epistles of Paul) have been
KEY. The Epistle to the Corinthians has been PIVOTAL and most RELEVANT.

I would only comment that the term "Carnal" may throw readers off. Perhaps
a better word would be Un-Spiritual as opposed to "Spiritual".
Perhaps "Immature" would be the most fitting.

Anyone who is not receiving guidance, wisdom and understanding directly from
the Holy Spirit on a CONTINUAL basis is an IMMATURE Christian regardless
of age or position or length of time being a Christian. To me it is SHOCKING
to see the number of "Pastors" and "Teachers" who fall into this category.
It is but a "sign of the times".

Would say MOST Important NT Book would have to be that of Romans, as it is the "magnus Opus" of the Apostle paul, only inspired Systematic Theology so to speak of the Bible!

 

[beameup]

Would say MOST Important NT Book would have to be that of Romans, as it is the "magnus Opus" of the Apostle paul, only inspired Systematic Theology so to speak of the Bible!

Agreed, but it is a very "HEAVY" Epistle. :smilewinkgrin:
Anyway, with Paul as the "foundation" it makes understanding
the rest of Scripture much easier.

 

[DHK]

Since God reads and knows our very thoughts, our "hidden desires" do ANY of us have nerve to say before Holy God that "I continually keep myself in a state of sinles perfection"

Know that we have both a relationship with God threu jeus, and after that is established with Him, up to us to keep that Fellowship open with Him!

It is up to YOU. You have no eternal security. Christ can't keep your salvation? It sounds like you have a works-based salvation and are not saved by grace through faith, but must work to maintain your salvation.

For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed against that day.
He will keep my salvation; for I cannot keep it myself.

 

[preacher4truth]

It is up to YOU. You have no eternal security. Christ can't keep your salvation? It sounds like you have a works-based salvation and are not saved by grace through faith, but must work to maintain your salvation.

For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed against that day.
He will keep my salvation; for I cannot keep it myself.

He's talking "fellowship" not "salvation."

I don't believe in that he thinks it "keeps us saved."

 

[DHK]

Would say MOST Important NT Book would have to be that of Romans, as it is the "magnus Opus" of the Apostle paul, only inspired Systematic Theology so to speak of the Bible!

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16)
It is not just Romans or 1Corinthians or the Pauline epistles. It is all Scripture. If you are unable to reconcile all Scripture to your position, like the backslider Lot, then you fail in your position. Here is a man, so backslidden, that he offered up his two virgin daughters to be molested all night by a crowd of angry homosexuals. Yet God called him just and righteous.

 

[DHK]

He's talking "fellowship" not "salvation."

I don't believe in that he thinks it "keeps us saved."

Yes, he was talking about fellowship. But the emphasis was on YOU, in other word that HE had to maintain fellowship without the help of God. God keeps my salvation even if I sin. God keeps my salvation, though he chastise me. I remain a child of his even if I don't repent. I will never fall away from God, even if I live a carnal life. I will always remain a child of God. Like the prodigal son, if I go and live a life a sin for a period of time, I remain his child. That is eternal security.

 

[JesusFan]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16)
It is not just Romans or 1Corinthians or the Pauline epistles. It is all Scripture. If you are unable to reconcile all Scripture to your position, like the backslider Lot, then you fail in your position. Here is a man, so backslidden, that he offered up his two virgin daughters to be molested all night by a crowd of angry homosexuals. Yet God called him just and righteous.

was JUST adressing his post that he considered 1 Corinthians as being MOST important singlr Bible Book!

Agree with you on this, still feel IF had to choose A Book to have and study from, would be Romans...