How Long Does it Take You to Backslide?

[DHK]

Like I said, you come off as very "judgemental" (I think I used the word "Pharisaical").

Perhaps you failed to follow my previous posts? There is a logical sequence.

"Backsliding" is not a Pauline doctrine. In the case of the Corinthian
Christians, they never made the "transition" from newborn "babies" in
Christ to being Spiritual Christians. Instead they, like most Christians
I have known, have been "stuck" in Carnality. The desires of this world -
obtaining possessions, desire for sensual satisfaction, etc. - prevent us
from "walking in the Spirit". A Christian may be intelligent and very well
versed in Scripture and even be a Seminary Graduate, but never have
"the mind of Christ". Only the Holy Spirit can impart WISDOM.
The proud need not apply.

There are only three "states": Natural > Carnal (Worldly, Ego Centered) > Spiritual.

1 Cor 2:15

Repeating your post word for word doesn't make it any more true than the first time you posted it.

 

[beameup]

....without the HS/HG we would be without defense, leadership, nuturing, feeding, infilling, knowledge, comfort, love, etc. I thank God for sending to each of us the HS, and the gifts He imparts. The armor Paul says we need to put on and wear each day is all HS supplied. Without the armor, we are hopelessly left to wander this world and be easy pickings to the devil and his minions.

Amen to that. I certainly spend enough years "wandering in this world as a
carnal christian" and the devil slapped me around keeping me down.
Finally, I got fed-up with doing my own thing and making mistakes. That's
when the patiently waiting Lord started guided me and I started to listen... and LEARN

 

[beameup]

Repeating your post word for word doesn't make it any more true than the first time you posted it.

Perhaps you failed to follow my previous posts? There is a logical sequence.

"Backsliding" is not a Pauline doctrine. In the case of the Corinthian
Christians, they never made the "transition" from newborn "babies" in
Christ to being Spiritual Christians. Instead they, like most Christians
I have known, have been "stuck" in Carnality. The desires of this world -
obtaining possessions, desire for sensual satisfaction, etc. - prevent us
from "walking in the Spirit". A Christian may be intelligent and very well
versed in Scripture and even be a Seminary Graduate, but never have
"the mind of Christ". Only the Holy Spirit can impart WISDOM.
The proud need not apply.

There are only three "states": Natural > Carnal (Worldly, Ego Centered) > Spiritual.

1 Cor 2:15

Supremacy of Paul, Apostle to Gentiles: 1 Cor 3:10, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11

I'm sure there are some on this board that recognize what I'm writing. :laugh:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, there may be some confusion in Heb. 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Although written probably by Paul it is specifically address to the Hebrews and not the Gentiles.
In this case as in the case of much of the Gospels the audience is Jews. Tribulation Jews will be
observing the LAW the same way that the Church in Jerusalem under Peter did.
Different Dispensation, Different Rules.

 

[Iconoclast]

There are only two men......the carnal man,and the spiritual man.

the teaching of the carnal christian is heresy.Scofield notes at the bottom of the bible are not inspired.:type:

also;

I don't follow Camping, however I do feel that most pastors (like Camping) haven't got a clue. This is probably because they are in fact "Carnal Christians". The times are evil and there are many false teachers/preachers. The Holy Spirit can be relied on to "guide us into all truth".

that promised guidance was given to the apostles....not you. Any truth we get comes from the Spirit.....you however are not infallibly guided into all truth.

 

[beameup]

Have you made the wonderful discovery of the Spirit-Filled Life? - Campus Crusade tract.
I first saw this tract back in 1969. Unfortunately, I was not yet able to apply it as, in retrospect,
I was not yet willing to give-up my Self-Directed (Carnal Christian) life.
Now, I can hardly wait for the next day and the things that the Holy Spirit will show me and teach me. :jesus:

 

[Iconoclast]

Have you made the wonderful discovery of the Spirit-Filled Life? - Campus Crusade tract.
I first saw this tract back in 1969. Unfortunately, I was not yet able to apply it as, in retrospect,
I was not yet willing to give-up my Self-Directed (Carnal Christian) life.
Now, I can hardly wait for the next day and the things that the Holy Spirit will show me and teach me. :jesus:

This tract help perpetuate this false teaching. There are no carnal christians , or backsliders.
Christians can commit acts of carnality,yes...but to live a life that could be categorized as carnal...is someone not yet saved,they are carnal in the heart.
You are not led anywhere apart from the word of God.The Spirit works in and through the word.

 

[preacher4truth]

This tract help perpetuate this false teaching. There are no carnal christians , or backsliders.
Christians can commit acts of carnality,yes...but to live a life that could be categorized as carnal...is someone not yet saved,they are carnal in the heart.
You are not led anywhere apart from the word of God.The Spirit works in and through the word.

I have to disagree with you here my brother.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
1Co 3:3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

These believers at Corinth were in fact carnal, or fleshly, yet they were in Christ.

Now, we can say they were In Christ, but weren't behaving Christ-like, or; Christian.

I agree there can be no backslidden Christian only if we use this word as one who has apostatized from the faith.

I would have been more clear in the OP having seen that many are, and rightly so, using the word in its true Biblical sense. But again, using this in the sense wherein we are not as close to the Lord because of whatever.

If yall don't play along on my terms "Ima take my marbles and go home!" :tear:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

You are not dead to sin. You are to act as if you are dead to sin. If you really were dead to sin, you really would be dead to sin and you would never, never sin any more. But quite frankly I have seen sin in posts made on the board. It becomes my duty to edit them. We all sin. It is in our nature to do so.
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Flesh is used in two ways:
1. It is your actual flesh = meat.
2. It is your nature. The Bible teaches this.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:5-6)
--The fleshly nature and the carnal nature are the same thing. They both lead to death. What is spoken of is the sin nature. And that sin nature dwells in you. It is not eradicated. You still have it. You still sin. You are not sinless like Christ.

What did John write:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

These are clear statements that we do sin. If we deny it we make Christ a liar and his word is not in us. We also are deceiving us. The reason we sin is because we have a sin nature.

Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here’s my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

The hymn writer put it well. Our hearts are prone to wander, wander and leave the God we love--a direct result of our sin nature.

I believe you are not reading my posts.
You don't respond to Romans 7.
Paul said clearly:
I am carnal sold under sin.
I have a sin nature and am sold under sin.
He said this as a believer describing his struggle with his sin nature.

The current day attempt to re-write scripture only show just how close we are to the coming of the Lord and how lukewarm the church is and near being spewed out.
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? We are dead to sin!

It becomes more and more clear why the church is in so much trouble with the editing of scripture.
We all sin. It is in our nature to do so.
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God

That phrase is speaking of the lost and no we do not have a sin nature after being saved. The teaching is an attempt to cover the real reason for our sin and to side step conviction.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:5-6)
--The fleshly nature and the carnal nature are the same thing. They both lead to death. What is spoken of is the sin nature. And that sin nature dwells in you. It is not eradicated. You still have it. You still sin. You are not sinless like Christ.

That passage is speaking of the contrast between a believer and a lost person. In verse 5 it speaks of death, spiritual death. There is no death for the believer. Again another reason to see why the church is in such bad shape.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

These are clear statements that we do sin. If we deny it we make Christ a liar and his word is not in us. We also are deceiving us. The reason we sin is because we have a sin nature.

John is dealing with Gnostics who believed they never sinned because the flesh and the spirit of man could not touch. This is saying those who say they NEVER have sinned are deceived. There is no sin nature in the believer.

Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here’s my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

The hymn writer put it well. Our hearts are prone to wander, wander and leave the God we love--a direct result of our sin nature.

Another reason to see why the church is so dead when anyone uses extra biblical material to set their beliefs on. We do not have a sin nature if we are saved and no a believer does not desire to leave the Lord. We have no sin nature.

I believe you are not reading my posts.
You don't respond to Romans 7.
Paul said clearly:
I am carnal sold under sin.
I have a sin nature and am sold under sin.
He said this as a believer describing his struggle with his sin nature.


I don't think anyone has to be Phi Beta Kappa to see that Paul is not speaking of himself. if anyone was not carnal it was Paul and it is impossible to be sold under sin after salvation since we have been bought with a price. Paul was not struggling with any sin nature because we have no sin nature. This is the same Paul who said while he was under the law he was blameless (kept the law). So we can rest assure he is not now struggling with obedience to the Lord. The claim is another excuse to cover responsibility for sin. We sin because our love for the Lord is lacking in what it is not because we have a sin nature. believers do nit have an old sin nature.

 

[freeatlast]

If there is envy, strife, divisions, and pride, then they are not living for the Lord. The rest of the chapter goes on and demonstrates this. Chapter five even mentions how there was immorality being condoned instead of being condemned in the church.

Then by your standards you are not living for the Lord as you admit that you sin daily and neither is anyone as it is impossible by your reasoning unless you believe that you or some are are sinless. However the truth is we all sin from time to time even if we do not have to and by most accounts of people they sin daily so all must be living in sin according to your standards. However they are not the bibles standards as it teaches differently.
No the passage is not saying what you claim as you have re-constructed it. The modern day re-construction of the word of God is one reason so many church goers are lost and in their sin. They have no reason to come to Christ because the bible does not mean what it says according to many who teach and preach. We do not have a sin nature after salvation and the passage above does not say they are living in sin which is a practicing sin since anyone who is doing that is lost. 1John 3. Christians do not live in sin as living in sin is a way of life and practice. it is impossible for a believer.1John3
Also Paul is dealing with individual problems with each individual. Not everyone in Corinth was having the exact same problem in every aspect of his life. Not every believer was defrauding the table as some did not get sick or die. Not every believer was arguing, or puffed up with some claimed spiritual gift, not ever believer was not taking their place in the gather and speaking out when prohibited, and so on and none of them has every fault. No this is not about a sin nature or the living in sin as anyone who lives in sin is lost. Christians do not have an old sin nature. We are born again and all things have passed away and that includes the sin nature.

 

[JesusFan]

Then by your standards you are not living for the Lord as you admit that you sin daily and neither is anyone as it is impossible by your reasoning unless you believe that you or some are are sinless. However the truth is we all sin from time to time even if we do not have to and by most accounts of people they sin daily so all must be living in sin according to your standards. However they are not the bibles standards as it teaches differently.
No the passage is not saying what you claim as you have re-constructed it. The modern day re-construction of the word of God is one reason so many church goers are lost and in their sin. They have no reason to come to Christ because the bible does not mean what it says according to many who teach and preach. We do not have a sin nature after salvation and the passage above does not say they are living in sin which is a practicing sin since anyone who is doing that is lost. 1John 3. Christians do not live in sin as living in sin is a way of life and practice. it is impossible for a believer.1John3
Also Paul is dealing with individual problems with each individual. Not everyone in Corinth was having the exact same problem in every aspect of his life. Not every believer was defrauding the table as some did not get sick or die. Not every believer was arguing, or puffed up with some claimed spiritual gift, not ever believer was not taking their place in the gather and speaking out when prohibited, and so on and none of them has every fault. No this is not about a sin nature or the living in sin as anyone who lives in sin is lost. Christians do not have an old sin nature. We are born again and all things have passed away and that includes the sin nature.

Apostle John makes it very clear that ALL christians have the HS dwelling in them, and as much as we rely upon His enabling power, he can and will keep us from sinning...

He also makes it clear that we have an enemy, called our Flesh, that per your man Paul is at emenity with God, cannot and does not want to obey God...

Both Apostles give us "reality" in the Christian life...

hav ethe means to live fior God and avoid sinning, by daily refilling and obeying the HS, but also that our sin natures will keep fighting us in doing that,,,

Great news is that WHEN we fall, John usuage of "IF" is when the implication that it is what will be happening at times in life of a believer, that once confess to God, by blood of Jesus fully restored back to God...

habitual sinning that produces NO godly repentance/confession to God is a sign that one might not really be saved, by BOTh Apostles John/paul have it that genuine believers WILL find their way back tot he Lord...

Just saying that Apostle Paul and John and Peter etc don't knoe of this 'sinless perfection" that you speak of, as ALL waiting tfor our bodies to get glorifed by Lord, and thus forever eradicating Sin principle that dwells within Us!

 

[freeatlast]

Apostle John makes it very clear that ALL christians have the HS dwelling in them, and as much as we rely upon His enabling power, he can and will keep us from sinning...

He also makes it clear that we have an enemy, called our Flesh, that per your man Paul is at emenity with God, cannot and does not want to obey God...

Both Apostles give us "reality" in the Christian life...

hav ethe means to live fior God and avoid sinning, by daily refilling and obeying the HS, but also that our sin natures will keep fighting us in doing that,,,

Great news is that WHEN we fall, John usuage of "IF" is when the implication that it is what will be happening at times in life of a believer, that once confess to God, by blood of Jesus fully restored back to God...

habitual sinning that produces NO godly repentance/confession to God is a sign that one might not really be saved, by BOTh Apostles John/paul have it that genuine believers WILL find their way back tot he Lord...

Just saying that Apostle Paul and John and Peter etc don't knoe of this 'sinless perfection" that you speak of, as ALL waiting tfor our bodies to get glorifed by Lord, and thus forever eradicating Sin principle that dwells within Us!

A Christian des not have two natures. We have the flesh to battle but not a nature. We are new creations. All sin is a choice ans we have the ability to not sin, and the debth of our Love for the Lord will deternind the frequency of our sinning, but no Christian practices sin.

 

[preacher4truth]

Apostle John makes it very clear that ALL christians have the HS dwelling in them, and as much as we rely upon His enabling power, he can and will keep us from sinning...

He also makes it clear that we have an enemy, called our Flesh, that per your man Paul is at emenity with God, cannot and does not want to obey God...

Both Apostles give us "reality" in the Christian life...

hav ethe means to live fior God and avoid sinning, by daily refilling and obeying the HS, but also that our sin natures will keep fighting us in doing that,,,

Great news is that WHEN we fall, John usuage of "IF" is when the implication that it is what will be happening at times in life of a believer, that once confess to God, by blood of Jesus fully restored back to God...

habitual sinning that produces NO godly repentance/confession to God is a sign that one might not really be saved, by BOTh Apostles John/paul have it that genuine believers WILL find their way back tot he Lord...

Just saying that Apostle Paul and John and Peter etc don't knoe of this 'sinless perfection" that you speak of, as ALL waiting tfor our bodies to get glorifed by Lord, and thus forever eradicating Sin principle that dwells within Us!

Well, I wonder how many sinlessly perfect days in a row one must have for freeatlast to be able to endorse said person as truly walking with God? How many sinlessly perfect days per week needs to be the average for the person to be a "true" believer?

Also, this thing that "all" things have passed away? It rather says old things, not all. That all things have become new is referring to the renewing of Spiritual life, not that now we are in glorified bodies that will now never sin, or at the very least, live sinlessly perfect periods of time as in entire days.

Thus, we have the imperatives to put away the old self with it's passions and lusts, since, obviously we still have this nature.

To deny this would be to place ones self in a sinlessly perfect state at all times, not just for time periods, according to the above beliefs and interpretations. This is a denial of 1 John 1:8.

- Peace

 

[JesusFan]

Well, I wonder how many sinlessly perfect days in a row one must have for freeatlast to be able to endorse said person as truly walking with God? How many sinlessly perfect days per week needs to be the average for the person to be a "true" believer?

Also, this thing that "all" things have passed away? It rather says old things, not all. That all things have become new is referring to the renewing of Spiritual life, not that now we are in glorified bodies that will now never sin, or at the very least, live sinlessly perfect periods of time as in entire days.

Thus, we have the imperatives to put away the old self with it's passions and lusts, since, obviously we still have this nature.

To deny this would be to place ones self in a sinlessly perfect state at all times, not just for time periods, according to the above beliefs and interpretations. This is a denial of 1 John 1:8.

- Peace

This is like another version of "lordship " salvation..

Just like in that system...

How freed from sin in order to show oneself as a 'true Christian?"
How do we know IF really saved IF Jesus not "Lord over all?"

is it really ALL or NOTHING?

 

[DHK]

This tract help perpetuate this false teaching. There are no carnal christians , or backsliders.
Christians can commit acts of carnality,yes...but to live a life that could be categorized as carnal...is someone not yet saved,they are carnal in the heart.
You are not led anywhere apart from the word of God.The Spirit works in and through the word.

A complete denial of Scripture.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:1)

 

[freeatlast]

This tract help perpetuate this false teaching. There are no carnal christians , or backsliders.
Christians can commit acts of carnality,yes...but to live a life that could be categorized as carnal...is someone not yet saved,they are carnal in the heart.
You are not led anywhere apart from the word of God.The Spirit works in and through the word.

Very true and the scripture bears it out. In fact it is impossible for any believer to live any part of their Christian life in the state of sinning.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born [1] of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[DHK]

The current day attempt to re-write scripture only show just how close we are to the coming of the Lord and how lukewarm the church is and near being spewed out.
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? We are dead to sin!

No you are not dead to sin. You are to act as if you are dead to sin.
Romans 6:11 is the key verse in that passage. Read it carefully:

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:11)
--Please explain. If you are already dead to sin why does Paul tell you to reckon yourself to be dead to sin. That means that you are not dead to sin, but action needs to be taken; daily action.

Trouble with English? Try this:
Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:11) WEB
Consider. That is act as if you are dead to sin. It is an action you must take.

It becomes more and more clear why the church is in so much trouble with the editing of scripture.

I don't edit Scripture. I expound on it. You might want to ask your preacher to do the same thing. Maybe you will understand more of it.

We all sin. It is in our nature to do so.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God

That phrase is speaking of the lost and no we do not have a sin nature after being saved. The teaching is an attempt to cover the real reason for our sin and to side step conviction.

Romans was written to believers in Rome. It is a great treatise on soteriology. He is explaining the doctrine of salvation to them. There is not one verse in that book written to unbelievers. How does the chapter start?

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Romans 3:3-4)
--This passage does include the elect as is indicated by verse 3.
Every man is a liar; only God is true. You sir, are a liar, according to the Word of God--not my words, but God's words. It is God that condemns you here not me. This is in connection with verse 23 that all have sinned. It hurts to hear those words doesn't it?

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:5-6)
--The fleshly nature and the carnal nature are the same thing. They both lead to death. What is spoken of is the sin nature. And that sin nature dwells in you. It is not eradicated. You still have it. You still sin. You are not sinless like Christ.

That passage is speaking of the contrast between a believer and a lost person. In verse 5 it speaks of death, spiritual death. There is no death for the believer. Again another reason to see why the church is in such bad shape.

No, Paul is writing to believers, and is contrasting the two natures that a believer has.
Notice the personal pronouns used:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)
"US" Paul includes himself. He has the old carnal nature.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Romans 8:13)
--"If you" Why does he write "you" if there wasn't the real possibility of "you" living after the flesh. He is giving them a warning not to live after the flesh--the carnal sin nature that ultimately leads to death (separation from God) as all sin does.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

These are clear statements that we do sin. If we deny it we make Christ a liar and his word is not in us. We also are deceiving us. The reason we sin is because we have a sin nature.

John is dealing with Gnostics who believed they never sinned because the flesh and the spirit of man could not touch. This is saying those who say they NEVER have sinned are deceived. There is no sin nature in the believer.

John is writing to believers. He never mentions gnostics. That is eisigesis. He expounds the truth. His theme is fellowship with God. If you are to have fellowship with God you must admit that you are a sinner. To deny such is to deny Christ. Then you must confess that sin to Christ on a daily basis. If you don't your fellowship with God will remain broken. Sin will separate you from God. You won't lose your salvation, but you will lose your walk with God, and live in carnality, in a backslidden condition like Lot did. There is no sin that a Christian is uncapable of.

Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,

Prone to leave the God I love;
Here’s my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

The hymn writer put it well. Our hearts are prone to wander, wander and leave the God we love--a direct result of our sin nature.

Another reason to see why the church is so dead when anyone uses extra biblical material to set their beliefs on. We do not have a sin nature if we are saved and no a believer does not desire to leave the Lord. We have no sin nature.

Other people testify to the same thing I testify to you of--we have a sin nature, and even our old hymns testify of the same thing. Ridicule it as you may, but don't sing the hymns of the faith if you can't agree with them. (Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing)

I believe you are not reading my posts.

You don't respond to Romans 7.
Paul said clearly:
I am carnal sold under sin.
I have a sin nature and am sold under sin.
He said this as a believer describing his struggle with his sin nature.

I don't think anyone has to be Phi Beta Kappa to see that Paul is not speaking of himself.

You are not thinking straight. Paul testifies of himself all throughout that chapter. The pronoun "I" is used a countless number of times. I don't have the time to count them all.

I am carnal sold under sin!
Oh wretched man that I am; who shall deliver me from the body of this death!
I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord.

And you say that Paul was not talking of himself. Those verses testify of Paul and no one else but Paul. It is his testimony. The only thing that keeps you from seeing that is a pre-conceived theology. Your theology blinds you from the truth.

if anyone was not carnal it was Paul and it is impossible to be sold under sin after salvation since we have been bought with a price.

Even Paul could sin. He lost his temper with Barnabas. Remember?

Paul was not struggling with any sin nature because we have no sin nature.

You don't take the Word of God seriously do you?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1 John 2:1)

You are making a mockery of the Word of God. God's Word, written to believers, says that we sin. We sin because we have a sin nature.

This is the same Paul who said while he was under the law he was blameless (kept the law). So we can rest assure he is not now struggling with obedience to the Lord.

He testified to his struggle with sin.

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (Romans 7:15-16)

The claim is another excuse to cover responsibility for sin. We sin because our love for the Lord is lacking in what it is not because we have a sin nature. believers do nit have an old sin nature.

And Paul said:
I am carnal sold under sin.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Romans 7:19)
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Romans 7:20)
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (Romans 7:21)

Over and over again he speaks of the evil (the sin nature) that dwells within him). It is a struggle, a battle between the sin nature and the new nature that Paul testifies of.

 

[freeatlast]

No you are not dead to sin. You are to act as if you are dead to sin.
Romans 6:11 is the key verse in that passage. Read it carefully:

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:11)
--Please explain. If you are already dead to sin why does Paul tell you to reckon yourself to be dead to sin. That means that you are not dead to sin, but action needs to be taken; daily action.

Trouble with English? Try this:
Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:11) WEB
Consider. That is act as if you are dead to sin. It is an action you must take.

I don't edit Scripture. I expound on it. You might want to ask your preacher to do the same thing. Maybe you will understand more of it.

Romans was written to believers in Rome. It is a great treatise on soteriology. He is explaining the doctrine of salvation to them. There is not one verse in that book written to unbelievers. How does the chapter start?

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Romans 3:3-4)
--This passage does include the elect as is indicated by verse 3.
Every man is a liar; only God is true. You sir, are a liar, according to the Word of God--not my words, but God's words. It is God that condemns you here not me. This is in connection with verse 23 that all have sinned. It hurts to hear those words doesn't it?

No, Paul is writing to believers, and is contrasting the two natures that a believer has.
Notice the personal pronouns used:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)
"US" Paul includes himself. He has the old carnal nature.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Romans 8:13)
--"If you" Why does he write "you" if there wasn't the real possibility of "you" living after the flesh. He is giving them a warning not to live after the flesh--the carnal sin nature that ultimately leads to death (separation from God) as all sin does.

John is writing to believers. He never mentions gnostics. That is eisigesis. He expounds the truth. His theme is fellowship with God. If you are to have fellowship with God you must admit that you are a sinner. To deny such is to deny Christ. Then you must confess that sin to Christ on a daily basis. If you don't your fellowship with God will remain broken. Sin will separate you from God. You won't lose your salvation, but you will lose your walk with God, and live in carnality, in a backslidden condition like Lot did. There is no sin that a Christian is uncapable of.

Other people testify to the same thing I testify to you of--we have a sin nature, and even our old hymns testify of the same thing. Ridicule it as you may, but don't sing the hymns of the faith if you can't agree with them. (Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing)

You are not thinking straight. Paul testifies of himself all throughout that chapter. The pronoun "I" is used a countless number of times. I don't have the time to count them all.

I am carnal sold under sin!
Oh wretched man that I am; who shall deliver me from the body of this death!
I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord.

And you say that Paul was not talking of himself. Those verses testify of Paul and no one else but Paul. It is his testimony. The only thing that keeps you from seeing that is a pre-conceived theology. Your theology blinds you from the truth.

Even Paul could sin. He lost his temper with Barnabas. Remember?

You don't take the Word of God seriously do you?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1 John 2:1)

You are making a mockery of the Word of God. God's Word, written to believers, says that we sin. We sin because we have a sin nature.

He testified to his struggle with sin.

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (Romans 7:15-16)

And Paul said:
I am carnal sold under sin.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Romans 7:19)
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Romans 7:20)
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (Romans 7:21)

Over and over again he speaks of the evil (the sin nature) that dwells within him). It is a struggle, a battle between the sin nature and the new nature that Paul testifies of.

When I say dead to sin am not suggesting we cannot sin ever. I understand we must battle against the flesh. However sin no longer has dominion over us. We are dead to its rule and are to live so that there is no sin. Prior to salvation all we could do was sin. Now that is not necessary as we have been given that which is needed to live without sinning. More then that in this discussion we are being kept from sinning as a daily lifestyle. 1John 3.
No child of God has ever backslid or returns to sinning. NONE!
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The rest of the verses you are pointing to you are twisting out of context. A Christian cannot die (be lost).
I realize what you are saying is very popular today as it releaves the pastor of giving the difficult truth of scripture. It is simply easier to reconstruct what is written and make it look like there are no absolutes, but there are and scripture is clear. A child of God cannot backslide or wat ever other term one may want to put on the practice of sining.

 

[JesusFan]

When I say dead to sin am not suggesting we cannot sin ever. I understand we must battle against the flesh. However sin no longer has dominion over us. We are dead to its rule and are to live so that there is no sin. Prior to salvation all we could do was sin. Now that is not necessary as we have been given that which is needed to live without sinning. More then that in this discussion we are being kept from sinning as a daily lifestyle. 1John 3.
No child of God has ever backslid or returns to sinning. NONE!
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The rest of the verses you are pointing to you are twisting out of context. A Christian cannot die (be lost).
I realize what you are saying is very popular today as it releaves the pastor of giving the difficult truth of scripture. It is simply easier to reconstruct what is written and make it look like there are no absolutes, but there are and scripture is clear. A child of God cannot backslide or wat ever other term one may want to put on the practice of sining.

You are correct in one point, that it is indeed true that a Christian has the means to live overcoming his besetting sins, byu relying upon person and power of the Holy Spirit now within him!

HOWEVER

Apostles John and paul BOTh would adhere that while that is the ideal, christians DO at times fall into sinning, sometimes quite badly, and theit remedy is to repent/confess to the Lord, get restored in their fellowship, and keep moving forward...

We can live victorious in christ, ideal to aspire to, but BOTH saved and lost can at times do bad sins, its just that saved do it against their new natures in Christ, and WILL eventually turn back to God to be restored, while the lost just keep sinning without remorse, as that is their nature!

 

[freeatlast]

You are correct in one point, that it is indeed true that a Christian has the means to live overcoming his besetting sins, byu relying upon person and power of the Holy Spirit now within him!

HOWEVER

Apostles John and paul BOTh would adhere that while that is the ideal, christians DO at times fall into sinning, sometimes quite badly, and theit remedy is to repent/confess to the Lord, get restored in their fellowship, and keep moving forward...

We can live victorious in christ, ideal to aspire to, but BOTH saved and lost can at times do bad sins, its just that saved do it against their new natures in Christ, and WILL eventually turn back to God to be restored, while the lost just keep sinning without remorse, as that is their nature!

No the bible never suggests that a believer will fall into the times (practice) of sinning. That is impossible.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Notice it says whosoever, not some or except in certain cases or anything like that. No child of God can backslide into sinning. We are kept from that. We have to deal with not sinning at all,while the Spirit keeps us from returning to sinning. No Christian ever loses fellowship with the Lord.
[Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee

 

[JesusFan]

No the bible never suggests that a believer will fall into the times (practice) of sinning. That is impossible.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Notice it says whosoever, not some or except in certain cases or anything like that. No child of God can backslide into sinning. We are kept from that. We have to deal with not sinning at all,while the Spirit keeps us from returning to sinning. No Christian ever loses fellowship with the Lord.
[Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee

You are taking "Free Grace" to really non biblical levels now!
NEVER lose our relationship while in Jesus, but we do lose our fellowship with the Father when we sin and do not repent and confess it before the Lord!

the Bible teaches that we all still have that principle of sin dwelling in us , even after getting saved, and that it takes us reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive in Christ...

Why SO many admonitians in bible to us as believers to make sure we confess our known sins, that we repent, that we must consider ourselves dead to sin, be filled continually in /by HS, to not let sun go down on our angry, do not give devil a toehold, to basically watch out from falling into those "besetting sins that so easily beset us"

Did the author of Hebrews know of this revelation that you seem to speak of?